Kate Harris

Welcome to the EAL/D conversations podcast. My name is Kate Harris, and I'm the EAL/D Education Advisor for K to 6 with the New South Wales Department of Education. We often hear that students need to be known, valued and cared for within our schools. But what does this actually mean for our EAL/D students? To help me to unpack this a bit I have two special guests. The first is Sascha Ogilvy, and she is the EAL/D Education Advisor with the New South Wales Department of Education. The second is Kerrie Quee, and Kerrie is one of our EAL/D Education Leaders in Regional South Operational Directorate. Welcome to both of you and thank you for joining me.

Kerrie Quee

Thanks, Kate.

Sascha Ogilvy

Thanks, Kate, for the introduction. Thank you.

Kate Harris

So, we might get started and we'll start off with thinking about well, how do we know who our EAL/D learners are? And what does EAL/D actually stand for?

Kerrie Quee

Well, Kate, I'll jump in there. And just first of all, just clarify that EAL/D stands for English as an additional language or dialect. And these students are learners that may include students who have been born overseas, or, in fact, Australian born students whose first language is a language or dialect other than English. And it can also include Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander students whose first language is an Indigenous language. And this would include traditional language, Creoles and related varieties or Aboriginal English. So, it's quite a broad range there.

Kate Harris

And alongside with EAL/D we often hear of the term LBOTE. What's the difference between LBOTE and EAL/D? Because the data shows that about 36% of our students are LBOTE and 24% are EAL/D. So what is LBOTE and how are they connected?

Sascha Ogilvy

Yes, um, Kate it does cause quite a lot of confusion. So LBOTE is a student of language background other than English, and they are students who have a language other than English, spoken by the student or by their parents or carers that's spoken at home. They are also EAL/D learners if they require help learning English as an additional language.

Kate Harris

So does that mean Sascha that not all LBOTE students are also EAL/D?

Sascha Ogilvy

That's right. That is what that means.

Kate Harris

So if we were to think of it in a visual way, would it be correct, would I be correct in saying that if you had an outer circle, that your whole school population and then within that circle there's another circle, which is the LBOTE- so those students have a language background other than English, and then inside LBOTE you can have another circle, which is EAL/D- and so they’re the students who have that language background other than English, but they're also requiring support to learn English as their additional language or dialect.

Sascha Ogilvy

That's correct. That would be a good way to put that. Yes.

Kate Harris

How do schools go about differentiating between who is LBOTE but who is also EAL/D?

Sascha Ogilvy

I think one of the ways Kate would be to have a conversation with the student, especially if they are of a high school age.

Kerrie Quee

Yes, and if I just can jump in there, too. I think speaking to families is really important here and getting to know your students through their carers. Um, have a chat and find out what level of language proficiency the child has in their home language, whether they can read and write in that language or perhaps it's just oral at that point. And, you know, in assessing, then you can go to the EAL/D learning progression with more knowledge about where that child is at as far as their home language goes.

Sascha Ogilvy

That's right, Kerrie. I think one of the ways to is by using the EAL/D learning progression as a tool to identify the linguistic elements and or behaviours and matching that up, that with what can be seen in the characteristics of the EAL/D learning progression. Um, it will help indicate the level of support that teachers will need to provide for students to access their learning area content.

Kate Harris

For someone who hasn't used the EAL/D learning progression before, this is an ACARA tool but can you explain a little bit more about what information it provides?

Kerrie Quee

Yep, I can there. I guess the learning progression as according to ACARA helps us understand the English language learning needs experienced by these students. It helps us identify the location of the students in the progression across four modes and we can talk about that later if you like. But the four modes are listening, speaking, reading and writing. Um, to monitor the language progression of students and also to identify future language learning goals. So, it really is a tool not just for the EAL/D specialists, but it's been designed for classroom teachers as well, so that they can understand their student, plan for them and assess.

Kate Harris

And you just touched then Kerrie on planning and assessment. Is that one of the reasons why it's important for teachers to understand who the EAL/D students are and where they're phases are across those modes?

Kerrie Quee

Yes, and talking on assessment is really important. And you know we can understand from the phases and seeing where students are as to what a good assessment task might be. Assessing students that are beginning and emerging is going to look different to assessing students who are developing and consolidating. And so it's good for teachers to have a look at the learning progression and differentiate their programs according to the language demands and scaffold the work and all this kind of thing can be made more clear by looking at the progression and finding where the student is sitting and then having a look at learning goals and where they're heading.

Sascha Ogilvy

Can I just add there Kerrie too, I think one of the things that about the EAL/D learning progression is that teachers are able to create an assessment that's authentic. Quite often, people are looking for a test or an English test that they can purchase. But I think by authentically creating and and having conversations with the student and using the content of the KLA I think is a really good way to go.

Kate Harris

And I think, Sascha that goes nicely into thinking about how we can value what the students bring to learning, because we've talked about just then knowing our students and understanding the phases. And you've talked about how you really want to make sure that what you're providing to students in terms of assessment is authentic, and that's showing that you value the knowledge and skills that they bring to your classroom. And I guess what I want to ask is, what else can you do to ensure that your EAL/D learners are valued?

Sascha Ogilvy

I think by really giving thought to who they are, what, how their journey to Australia came about understanding too that culture is important. So that idea of utilising home language and encouraging the use of home language, too, to show that you do care because quite often students can understand the concepts that are being taught if it's highlighted in their first language. So I think that would be a key way into the values of the students.

Kate Harris

So would you say that using home language within the classroom actually enhances their opportunity to learn and to develop their English proficiency?

Sascha Ogilvy

Oh definitely. What do you think Kerrie is…?

Kerrie Quee

Yes, well, I was just actually going to jump in there with an example. And yes, I think so. I think being bilingual is fantastic and we need to develop, keep developing that. I was thinking just now of an example where my Stage two group were doing some work around sustainability, and it's very, very difficult language in sustainability. We were making a board game, and my students knew that this board game was going to go home for them to play at home, but also, they would have to take it back to their classmates and play it in class. And so to practise, before they had to present it to their class they took it home and I got them to. We had already written the rules of the game in English, and I worked with them on that and found the correct words in English for that. But I asked them when they went home, if they could get their families to help them translate the rules of the game into their home language. So when they came back, that was also pasted onto their game board, and they were so proud of the fact that they had their home language and had their families involved in their learning. And I think that really showed that we valued what was happening at home for those students and their home language and developing their bilingualism. And they were just so excited about being able to share this learning with their families. But then also with their classmates, they became more confident because they had discussed the content at home. Then they could come back into class with a better understanding of some of the content because they've discussed it with their parents in their home language. Um, And so I think it's really important to keep allowing students to speak in their home language, to write, to read whatever proficiency they have to continue doing that.

Kate Harris

It sounds like, Kerrie that the students were also able to make those connections between home language and English and the concepts that they understood so that they could not only discuss it in home language, but then they were building that knowledge in English as well, because they had that conceptual knowledge built when they were talking with their parents.

Kerrie Quee

Yeah, that's right. And they had a proper audience. You know, I think audiences really important here in that we weren't just doing something for the sake of me looking at it as their teacher, you know, the audience was going to be the families at home and also their classmates. They knew that they were preparing something, and they had a really strong reason as to why they were doing what they were doing.

Kate Harris

That sounds great. So are there any other things that you think teachers need to be aware of when thinking about how they can value what their EAL/D students bring to the classroom?

Sascha Ogilvy

I think Kate just in the same way that we value all students. Um, it's about getting to know who's in your classroom. Um, you know, a little bit of their family background. Know what, you know, what's happening just in the morning when they were coming to school. I think that applies to all students. But for EAL/D I know that by creating a trust with their teachers can be really beneficial as well.

Kate Harris

Absolutely. And I think that wellbeing side of things is very important to make sure that that's in place, that they know that they can go and talk to you. They have that person within the school that they trust and have that professional relationship with. We move into thinking about - well, how can we care for our students? So we know how to identify who are the EAL/D learners are. We talked about how we can value some of those things that they bring into the classroom. How can we make sure that they're actually being cared for and that their needs are being met?

Kerrie Quee

This is where I really think advocacy is important we're the ones that these students turn to for support and because they come to know us, obviously, because we're supporting them in class and we sometimes they're having withdrawal groups and, um, you know, supporting their learning. And so they get to know us. And I love it when some kids are learning English and I walk across the playground and they call my name for miles, like I can hear my name being screamed across the playground, I look across and there they are, waving at me because, you know, I'm their safe place. And, uh, they would only be doing that because they know that they're being cared for and that I'm their person on site. And so the advocacy is, yes it's in the classroom, but it's also outside of the classroom. If um if they need to talk to someone and be that place, be that person. If you're the classroom teacher. You can be that person that they come to, and that is going to listen to them if something is wrong and you're going to stand there and you're until you can understand what they're trying to tell you. You know, I think advocacy is probably a really important word here.

Kate Harris

Mm I think that's very important, Kerrie. What do you think, Sascha?

Sascha Ogilvy

Yeah, I I fully agree with what Kerrie has to say. I mean, I know from my own experience that have been the EAL the sole EAL/D teacher at a school that quite often you are a point of trust for the students. I think part of being a specialist, EAL/D teacher, is that we form strong bonds with students. But I think too, translating that to bonding with their classroom teachers, creating relationship whereby it's one of trust so that the students get a sense of that we are working on their behalf alongside classroom teachers that we're not, um, separate from that. And part of that comes from having a trust and a working relationship with classroom teachers as well. And, and just knowing that we are a specialist in understanding the linguistic requirements that students need for learning and that we can translate that across to working or enhancing if you like differentiating teaching and learning programs as well.

Kate Harris

And I think what you've just touched on, Sascha is thinking about those students language learning needs and how we can meet those alongside the content learning needs of the syllabus. So what kind of things can teachers do to ensure that that happens?

Sascha Ogilvy

Part of our toolkit as EAL/D teachers is to have this idea of message abundancy. Um, that we're setting students up, you know, quite often teachers will use group work, and group work is not a natural happening, and teachers often forget that EAL/D learners may not have the language needed to participate in group work. So it's been really mindful of the activities that are being provided and creating a classroom environment where it's a safe place, that there is time. You know that we talk about having a silent period, but that's not ridiculed, that you don't cut them off, or that you that you are supportive of that silent period and you may come back to them with the same question but worded in a different way, um, to allow the opportunity to respond. So it's really just being mindful and considerate of the activities that you're engaging with in the classroom.

Kerrie Quee

Mm and I think too you could you can observe your own classroom. This is sort of still part of cared for and valued I suppose as well. Look around your classroom and what are your EAL/D students doing at any particular one particular time? And if they're just sitting there, not engaging, then you know ask yourself the question, Why? What is it or how can I make this learning more accessible for them? Um, and think about the modelled guided independent, um, formula and just think well have I modelled this enough? Have I been explicit enough? Have I taught the vocab? Just think about where... not where their gaps are in the learning more about where our gaps are in our teaching. How can we fill in the gaps so that, um, they're being supported and they're not just sitting there confused, but have been given the tools they need to actually start accessing the curriculum and the learning in the classroom? So I think looking around the room and just it's for every child standing across the room and just seeing Okay, well that child, isn't, just doesn't seem to be getting what I'm saying. Why not? And how can I fill that gap? How can I scaffold that learning for that child?

Kate Harris

And I guess too Kerrie there's lots of professional learning that's provided through the multicultural education team, which can be found on our website. Um, if teachers want to know more about how to embed quality EAL/D pedagogy and practices into their teaching and learning programs to be able to enhance them to meet the needs of those EAL/D students. And we also have the EAL/D Advice for schools document which goes through and explicitly explains some of those pedagogies as well and provides lots of other great information, particularly for teachers who might be new to teaching EAL/D students. It's a really great document to be able to use as a reference point. Are there other places where they could go to be able to find out more?

Kerrie Quee

Definitely. And look the multicultural websites fantastic. And you'll also find the enhanced teaching and learning cycle for EAL/D teaching and its brilliant and worth having a look at. If you want to trial some things, the Henry Parkes Equity Centre Library is fantastic, and they will actually help you if, if, there's something in particular that you want to read about. If you have students from particular areas, Ah, then you can ring them and let them know. If you have even, say, a group of beginning students you need to support tell them and they will send out a package to you that is going to support your teaching. So they are certainly, it's worthwhile joining that library.

Sascha Ogilvy

I agree too Kerrie, and I think one of the important things for high school learners, especially, is we have to select texts for them to engage with, especially in the English KLA. And the, there are an abundance of texts that you can choose that are what we call or refer to as readers. Um, I had to have a laugh with one of my staff who thought that I was employing a person to read the text aloud to students when I was saying, I want to purchase readers. Um, so really thinking about you know, the age group of your students and, and the types of texts that are available and a range that are out there that they can really bite into if you like. I had an experience where I was teaching Fallen Leaves, and I purchased the full text for those students who could read it and then the abridged version for those students who were still learning English as a language as an additional language. And you could really see though it was an exciting class to be in because they became part of the lesson, Um, and didn't feel like they had to struggle to read the full text. So just giving little thought to that, um, even is a good starting point as well.

Kate Harris

I think that's a really great point Sascha and also thinking about if you do have an EAL/D teacher within your school tapping into their knowledge and expertise.

Sascha Ogilvy

Definitely for sure.

Kerrie Quee

Absolutely yes. And that should definitely be your first point of call is to seek out the EAL/D teacher and it's a journey together. You'll support each other for the children that are in your class. And I think Kate, as we're talking about known, valued and cared for the questions are when you see that child in your class do I know this child? Have I spoken to their parents? Do I know what language background they have? And how long have they been learning English? And do I value that home experience and story and how, how have I shown that I valued that? And then how do I care for this child's learning and wellbeing and language learning needs? So I think it's really worthwhile to just go through those three things and ask yourself those questions.

Kate Harris

I think there's some nice reflective questions there, Kerrie. Well, thank you both for joining me today. I think there's so much that can be spoken about on this topic and we've just touched on a few areas, but hopefully that will give people a little bit of an idea as to the kinds of things they can do to ensure that the EAL/D students are known, valued and cared for. So thank you, Kerrie. And thank you, Sascha.

Kerrie Quee

Thanks, Kate. That was great.

Sascha Ogilvy

Thanks, Kate, for the opportunity. Wonderful.

Kate Harris

And I hope you will tune in for our next podcast.

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