Introduction

School leaders play a vital role in providing every student in New South Wales public schools with a great education and the best start in life. They have a positive impact in classrooms and on their staff. They guide teacher development and engage their communities. Here at the NSW Department of Education's School Leadership Institute, our mission is to support all NSW public school leaders by providing world-class, evidence-informed leadership development programs and resources.

Our podcast will explore the key issues and challenges of school leadership. Hosted by Joanne Jarvis, the director of the School Leadership Institute, tune in and listen to our guests and colleagues share their expertise, insights and wisdom on leading with purpose and impact.

Welcome to our Leadership in Focus series.

Joanne Jarvis

Hello and welcome to episode 14 of the Leadership Conversations podcast series. I'm Joanne Jarvis, and I'm the director of the NSW Department of Education's School Leadership Institute. In this episode, we will be exploring the notion of cultural humility. And with me today is Professor Jioji Ravulo. Professor Jioji Ravulo is the professor and chair of Social Work and Policy Studies in the Sydney School of Education and Social Work at the University of Sydney.

His research, writing and areas of interest include health and wellbeing, youth, diversity and inclusion, decoloniality and critical whiteness. He has been involved and invited to author over 90 publications, including peer-reviewed journal articles, scholarly book chapters, research reports, and opinion pieces. Nuanced with a genuine commitment to the dynamic inclusion of cultural diversity and its differences, Jioji is super keen to create and implement collaborative learning and teaching practices across all levels of education.

It's a real privilege to have you join me today as we discuss cultural humility and other topics.

Jioji Ravulo

Hi, g’day, good to see you. Joanne.

Joanne Jarvis

Thank you for coming. Jioji, you are a product of public education. Could you talk to us about the ways it has shaped you and your career trajectory?

Jioji Ravulo

Public education for me has been a platform to understand the local community in which I was educated, whilst also understanding the realities associated with the people that come into those respective spaces. I think public education and the spaces that it creates across NSW and beyond provides a level of community to understand who is in the community, who makes up the community and how the community is represented in those learning environments.

And so for me, being involved in public education has been a real connection to community.

Joanne Jarvis

Yeah, absolutely. I've heard you speak to participants in our leadership programs multiple times now about the notion of cultural humility. Could we explore what you mean by this term and how it is different from cultural competence?

Jioji Ravulo

So cultural humility really positions ourselves as a co-learner in the process of engagement with diversity. Cultural competency, on the other hand, provides more of a static and fixed engagement with diversity. We've all done a cultural competency course where we've learned a set of rules or a set of instructions in how to engage with cultural diversity and its differences.

And in that particular course, we learn about the other as being the other, rather than how do we, in our own areas of diversity, engage meaningfully across differences? So cultural humility really encourages us to be aware of our own areas of diversity, and how that may shape our engagement with other areas of diversity.

Joanne Jarvis

So what does cultural humility look like in practice? You know, what would you see when you walk through the school gates and see it enacted by school leaders?

Jioji Ravulo

So cultural humility also promotes this idea of having cultural curiosity. So being curious about what makes the other person different and how your own areas of diversity may engage with that area of diversity that you are interacting with. So for example, if you see a student in the playground, you may be intrigued and or want to learn more about what makes them different, but more so also how their difference may also contribute to the school as a learning community.

So rather than assume based on someone's appearance or your understanding of their background, you engage dialogically. You have a conversation. You build rapport and a relationship with that person in a meaningful way. And it's through that particular exchange, that cultural humility can occur.

Joanne Jarvis

So what would you say to me if I was a student in the playground and you observed cultural difference? What would that look like?

Jioji Ravulo

So it could be as easy as saying, how was your morning? How did you spend your morning? What did you have for breakfast? How did you get to school? And by virtue of you listening and learning about that person's lived and living experience, you come to understand how they may be different and how that area of diversity may be part of your school community.

Joanne Jarvis

I love the way you talked about cultural curiosity as well. Unpack that a little bit further for me.

Jioji Ravulo

So it's genuinely being curious about other people and it's about being able to get over yourself, I think. So rather than you feel like you are an expert. And that's a thing that happens as educational leaders, as educators in general, we do come with a wealth of knowledge and we bring that to the learning environment. But a good educational leader, and we know this from the research, and we know this from the practice, is one that actually works alongside people and is also a co-learner in their learning environment.

So it's very much about being curious and asking questions about other people in their learning environment and utilising those areas of curiosity and the learning that we take from those learners in our learning environment into the classroom.

Joanne Jarvis

And we know that curious leaders build trust.

Jioji Ravulo

Very much so. So one of the key things that we know from cultural humility is this concept of cultural consciousness or conscientiousness. So this is a concept that came from key philosophers like Paulo Freire, a Brazilian philosopher that talked about this idea of building relationships and rapport. And being able to do that in a dialogical way, this idea of creating dialogue and having dialogue.

And when you build rapport and relationships with others, that's when people feel comfortable to be themselves. And it's through their authenticity to be themselves in their learning environments that they are able to bring their whole selves to their learning, which enables them to engage and also provide scope for their areas of diversity to be part of the learning journey.

Joanne Jarvis

So what would be your best advice regarding how one develops cultural humility in themselves and in others.

Jioji Ravulo

I think one of the key things to initially do is be aware of your own areas of diversity. Now when we talk about culture in Australia, a lot of the time we think about ethnicity and ethnic communities. But cultural diversity includes all areas of diversity. And that might be based on your gender expression, on your class so your socioeconomic status and backgrounds, your religion or spirituality, your sexuality, your ability. And when I talk about ability, I’d rather say that rather than disability. So your physical ability will determine how you navigate and negotiate the world around you. Even your language and areas of indigeneity, will also impact on the way in which you see the world around you. So all of your areas, or your identities, will make a difference in how you then interact with others.

So cultural humility is really encouraging us to be aware of our own areas of even privilege, and our own biases, and how this then may impact on our engagement with others.

Joanne Jarvis

What would that look like if you're a school principal and you're trying to shape the conditions around your school and the development of your staff so that they do develop that notion? What kinds of things would you engage them in?

Jioji Ravulo

So as educational leaders, as principals, I’d be encouraging your colleagues to be mindful of who makes up your school community.

And it would be about being able to create conversations with your students about what is different and how they may use their difference, even as colleagues, as teachers, as educators. How do they make their or how do they utilise their own difference to make a difference? Also, this idea of their difference being a light, a little light, that they may use to shine into areas of their curriculum, into their areas of their, into their key learning areas.

So it's about being able to ensure that educators, teachers can see their own areas of diversity and difference as being a light that can be utilised as part of their leadership in the classroom that encourages other areas of diversity to come out into the classroom.

Joanne Jarvis

Floodlighting. Now, Jioji, I've heard you speak about broadening the definition of culture to strengthen an equity-oriented approach to leadership. Can you elaborate on why this is so important?

Jioji Ravulo

It's so important because it provides scope for us to be meaningfully inclusive. If we're going to, as a department, as educational leaders, as even a community, we're going to create scope for our students to feel like they belong, we need to create critical conversations around cultural diversity and its differences. And if we're not providing scope for those critical conversations to occur, then we uphold the status quo, where everything just becomes what we do around here.

One of the key things that we need to be mindful as educational leaders is we're the ones that create the culture in our learning environments, in our schools in which we are leaders. Traditionally, we think that it's the students and staff that create the culture. Yes, that's important, but it's actually us as educational leaders that actually define what we value.

And that's what culture is by definition, culture is what we value. And as educational leaders, we actually determine what we value because we're the ones that determine how we do things around here. Even what we know as the status quo. So if we create a status quo where equity and inclusion is key to our leadership, then that is the culture we set in space and place within our schools.

Joanne Jarvis

So you're a principal, deputy principal, head teacher, assistant principal, teacher. There's the workforce, and others that comprise the richness of a school community. When they're adopting an equity orientation, what are some of the things that should be uppermost in their mind to enable their contribution to that culture, to achieve equity?

Jioji Ravulo

Fantastic question, Joanne. I'm so glad you asked that. So it's about being mindful about how a particular subject or key learning area may be consumed and engaged with people from diverse backgrounds. So it's about being mindful of what would our indigenous students think and how could they engage their diversity as Indigenous First Nations students to this topic area?

How could our migrant communities, how could those with diverse languages perceive this topic area, and potentially value- add their perspective to this? How could people from low socioeconomic statuses perceive this topic area, and value-add their perspective in this area? How could our gender diverse and diverse sexual oriented students engage with this topic area, and how could they value-add to these particular conversations?

And it's when you as a leader understand that there are different ways that you could actually consume and engage with these key learning areas that you then go, oh, we could actually create a more diverse learning environment by virtue of acknowledging such diversity in our classrooms.

Joanne Jarvis

So it's the curiosity to ask the questions and think really deeply about these issues before walking into a room and just delivering.

Jioji Ravulo

Exactly. And this is where critical pedagogy plays out. This is where as educational leaders but even as educators, we're mindful of utilising learning and teaching approaches and practices that really provides the scope for such areas of diversity to come out. So, for example, the flipped classroom approach, in my approach as an educator, especially in universities, I would generally present the concept that I'm wanting our students to be across or learn.

And then I will then go, what do you think based on what I've just taught? And by opening a dialogue, a conversation with individuals in the classroom, you're privileging their perspective on the concept and allowing them to contribute to the conversation as co-learners with each other. And that's where diversity and richness of such diverse lived and living experience comes to the conversation.

Joanne Jarvis

Do you see a connection between that and growth in efficacy, collective efficacy?

Jioji Ravulo

Oh, very much so, because then it provides scope for learning outcomes to be achieved collectively. Very much so. So the efficacy in the engagement occurs because people feel like they can then contribute their areas of diversity to the shared conversation in the classroom.

Joanne Jarvis

What's the role of faith and hope in building efficacy to improve equitable access, experiences and outcomes for students in your view.

Jioji Ravulo

So the concept of faith and hope again, another Freireian perspective, so from Paulo Freire, the philosopher that does a lot of stuff on critical pedagogies, as educational leaders, as educators, it's so important that we have faith that what our students are engaging with is possible. That it is possible for us to put out these particular concepts in our learning environments and have hope that what they are actually going to contribute is going to help the process of achieving a learning outcome.

So having faith and hope that our students from low socioeconomic backgrounds, our students from gender and sexual diverse orientations are going to be able to turn up and contribute. Our students from First Nations backgrounds, having faith and hope that they can contribute to our learning environments, makes a big difference. And again, we're the ones as leaders that will make or break the possibility of that occurring in the first place.

Joanne Jarvis

When you talk about faith and hope, how do you define those two, and why do you use the two terms separately and together in that one phrase?

Jioji Ravulo

I think faith talks about this idea that we can inherently value people's ability to bring their diversity to the classroom. So that's where we have faith that it will work out. Hope provides then scope of also being both present and future focus. So having hope that what we're doing here and now will make a difference in the future.

Joanne Jarvis

It ties one to impact.

Jioji Ravulo

Very, very much so. And always being future focused, knowing that what we're doing in the classroom will have an impact in the future. Very much so. And that's what I love about being an educator and being educational leader is knowing that what we're doing today in the classroom will be transformational and have impact.

Joanne Jarvis

Jioji, you've highlighted in your work how power imbalances create conditions of disadvantage that impact students and their communities. Why is it important for school leaders and teachers to understand and address this dynamic in their context?

Jioji Ravulo

So power imbalances occur because we create the status quo, and the status quo is generally defined by power and privilege. And power and privilege has generally been set up within a Western framework from theories like colonialism. So the work that I do around de-coloniality is about being able to unpack the ongoing impacts of colonialism. Historically, we see colonisation as being something that may have occurred in a point of history or in time, but decoloniality is continuously having a critical conversation about the power imbalances and about the status quo, and how we try and flip the script and even deconstruct the way in which such power imbalances continue to occur in society today.

So it's about then having these conversations where diversity can be part of a conversation, rather than saying, you know, there is only one way of looking at things and everything else is wrong, where we see and potentially uphold a binary approach to life. So we go it's either this or that, wrong or right, black or white, good or bad.

In Western society, we're very good at the binary approach. But within decolonial approaches, we're trying to challenge that, and we're trying to question how we got here in the first place. And the way in which we counteract a lot of the status quo and a lot of the binary thinking is by including diversity.

Joanne Jarvis

So what you're suggesting is that there is a real need to address the reality of the intergenerational impact of colonisation on students in our care, and how do you suggest teachers approach that in a way that has impact, is sensitive and is inclusive?

Jioji Ravulo

Is to have those curious conversations. To openly include peoples lived and living experience. I also want to note that colonisation has an impact on everybody, not just First Nations students, but on everyone, including people who identify as being white. We are, as white people may also have perceived notions of what the status quo is. I'll give you a practical example.

Gender roles and gender norms. They've been constructed, and we're instructed as people in Western communities to uphold a particular gender norm and a particular gender role at the exclusivity of other diverse perspectives. So we prescribe a particular way of this is what a man does. This is what a woman does. And that's all we do. And that is colonialism at play.

So being able to have more of a decolonial or more of an inclusive and eclectic approach to understanding what gender norms and roles might look like by including other diverse perspectives on gender and even sexuality, can actually move beyond the way in which we create the status quo around those particular perspectives.

Joanne Jarvis

in what ways does the notions of de-coloniality and whiteness impact on the whole of society? Could we explore that a little bit more deeply?

Jioji Ravulo

For sure. So decoloniality and whiteness really gives us an opportunity to understand power and how power is at times used to oppress people and use to create a particular way of looking at the world around us. And so that's why concepts like cultural humility is key, because cultural humility provides scope for us to understand the world beyond just one way of looking at things.

So rather than just this concept of white is right or west is best, cultural humility provides scope for critical conversations to be inclusive of areas of diversity that is inclusive of those that might come from different class backgrounds, so socioeconomic statuses, or religions, or areas of ethnicity, or sexuality or gender. So when I talk about these key areas of diversity and its differences, everyone comes from that particular area.

Everyone has a gender expression. Everyone has a class. Everyone has a form of spirituality or religion. Everyone has a form of ability. So that's why it's important that we're aware of the status quo that generally, again, is created by the privileging of one way of looking at things that comes from colonisation versus a more inclusive and diverse way of looking at the world around us.

Joanne Jarvis

I love the way you highlight light is your difference. So this might be an inspiring way to conclude our podcast. And could you talk to us about what you mean by that term? And then perhaps you could sing us out?

Jioji Ravulo

Sure. So I'm always encouraged by this idea of people having a light that they use, and they can use this light as their form of diversity, as their form of difference. And it's using that light to actually then make a difference through your difference. So it's a song that I've sang previously, especially when we used to do our sessions together, in our leadership sessions, called This Little Light of Mine, and I'm happy to sing this.

Joanne Jarvis

We would love you to.

Jioji Ravulo

This little light of mine. I'm gonna let it shine. This little light of mine. I'm gonna let it shine. This little light of mine. I'm gonna let it shine. Let it shine, let it shine, let it shine.

Joanne Jarvis

Thank you Jioji. Thank you for sharing your wonderful insights into cultural humility and for all of our listeners, please follow the School Leadership Institute on X. Our handle is @SLI. For NSW Department of Education staff, you can access our leadership resources via the department's portal. Thank you for listening.