Siobhan:

I'd like to acknowledge that this episode of the Teach NSW Podcast was recorded on the homelands of the Darug people. I'd like to pay respect to Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening to the Teach NSW Podcast today.

Opening Credits:

Welcome to the Teach NSW Podcast, a podcast by teachers for teachers. I'm Shannon, and I'm Siobhan.

Shannon:

Hi, everyone. Welcome back. On today's episode of the Teach NSW Podcast, we are joined by Chris, who is a primary principal in a NSW public school on the traditional lands of the Darug people. Now, Chris was formerly my deputy principal when I was a young whippersnapper, beginning teacher, and we're very excited to have Chris here to join us today on the couch to talk about his passion for supporting future leaders. So welcome, Chris.

Chris:

Thank you. Great to be here.

Siobhan:

Let's do a bit of a kick-off segment with you, Chris, just to, you know, make you feel welcome to the Teach NSW Podcast lounge with a bit of a Teacher This or That. So let us know, would you prefer this or that? So the first one, quite easy. Coffee or tea?

Chris:

Tea.

Siobhan:

Because?

Chris:

Well, I don't like coffee and to be honest I don't do hot drinks as a general rule, but if I have to choose, I'll choose tea.

Siobhan:

Interesting, interesting.

Chris:

I'm very unique in that way. There aren't many teachers that don't drink coffee, so.

Shannon:

That's true.

Siobhan:

You'd think that, but I feel like we've had at least 2 or 3 people on the couch who aren't coffee drinkers either. So maybe you have to start your own group.

Chris:

My influence is spreading.

Siobhan:

That's right.

Shannon:

It's a close-knit community.

Siobhan:

Yeah, the non-coffee.

Shannon:

But there is one.

Siobhan:

Non-coffee teachers drinkers unite,you know? Yeah, you'll have to start your own Statewide Staffroom or something.

Chris:

Solidarity. Love it.

Shannon:

Yeah, I stand with the coffee drinkers of the world, so that's me done.

Siobhan:

Coffee as well, yeah. I dabble in both, but definitely at work, coffee. Okay. Would you rather address an assembly or lead a staff meeting?

Chris:

Ooh, good one.

Siobhan:

Obviously you're a pro at both, but for the sake of picking.

Chris:

Ooh, yeah, look, probably the staff meeting. I feel like they're more forgiving than what the children can be. Particularly if you go completely rogue and off-script, so.

Shannon:

Yeah, and the children are not shy in letting you know also, and that's what I love about being a primary school teacher. You are humbled at any given moment of the day, so.

Siobhan:

I like that. So is yours assembly or staff meeting?

Shannon:

I would also say the staff meeting.

Siobhan:

Yeah, great.

Shannon:

But I did love getting up with the mic. We had a microphone at the school that I worked at because there were so many students, over a thousand. So, you know, there was part of me that really loved the microphone. I don't know how I found myself here with more microphones, but maybe that's how I developed my skill.

Siobhan:

There’s a look into your future.

Shannon:

Absolutely.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Shannon:

What about you?

Siobhan:

Oh, I like an assembly because it's short, sharp, to the point. You know, your time in front of the group is limited as opposed to a staff meeting. So, yeah, I feel like I'm an assembly kind of person. I like the power of being, you know, being at the front.

Chris:

It's only short and sharp if you let it be that, and I think that's part of my problem,

Shannon:

I don't feel like.

Chris:

It goes for an extended period.the bell rings, everyone wants to go home and I'm still at the front talking. So, yeah, it probably helps us again if you put the staff meeting in that context.

Siobhan:

Ah, so true. Well, that's the end of the This or That segment. I hope you feel welcome and comfortable on the couch because we're about to ask you about you. So, I think let's take it back and

Chris:

Oh, my least favorite topic.

Siobhan:

Yeah, tell us where it all began for you in terms of, you know, how did you go from a classroom teacher to a school principal?

Chris:

Look, I think for me, leadership sort of came incidentally. I became a teacher because I loved working with children. I loved being in the classroom, and the primary setting is one where you become essentially a family. I know that sounds really, I don't know, cliché or corny or something. It's the truth, and you feel as though you're part of that, and I loved that job, and I think I was good at that job. And by being good at the job, I got recognised as somebody who could potentially go into leadership. And I remember having a conversation with a colleague at the time who said, 'Oh, it'll take you a long time to get an assistant principal's role. So even though you don't want it now, you should start applying early so you can get the feedback, build your CV, and learn from there.' So I took that advice on, I applied, and got the first one that I went for, which I was not at all expecting and not ready for, and went into a school that was very different from my original context, which brought some really unique challenges and great learning experiences. But in that school, it was a school of about 350 children thereabouts. So, as an assistant principal, you were second-in-charge after the principal. And my principal had an illness that meant that I needed to take on the relieving principal's role, which I did not want to do. I didn't want to leave the classroom, but it was out of necessity that I took it on short term and, for a range of different reasons and things that I really enjoyed in that space, I moved into a deputy principal's role from there, which I loved. It was almost like being a principal but with training wheels. So you got to do all the fun stuff but if anything went south, you just step back and let the boss take the fall. And then, yeah, the training wheels came off and became a principal in 2018, just in time for, you know, lockdowns and COVID and all that sort of fun stuff.

Siobhan:

The real tests for you, yeah.

Chris:

Yeah, and I'm still here, so.

Siobhan:

No training wheels.

Chris:

Yeah, that's right.

Shannon:

Absolutely, you survived. Well then how does working in the classroom compare to working as a principal now in terms of the impact you have on the students?

Chris:

It's funny you say that. So when I was saying before about how I didn't really want to go into that relieving principal's role, I had a conversation with my substantive principal at the time who was off, and she said to me, 'When you're a classroom teacher, you can change the lives of the 30 children in your class.' And that's very much how I viewed teaching. I viewed that power that I had to be able to impact those children. And she said to me, 'But when you become a leader within the school, you can change the lives of every child in the school.' And it's funny because that's where I sort of, that was my mindset shift, I guess, that got me into that and to embrace that idea of leading in a larger context. And now that I'm sort of in this space and having been in the principalship now for 6 years substantively,this is going to sound almost condescending and I don't mean it to be, but your children sort of change to your staff, and you look at how you can support them and build them and you care for them like your own little family,and in doing so, you allow them to then have that impact on those 30 children. And there's still things that I do to make sure I still get into the classroom and little things that I've got with the students in the school. Whenever I have visitors, it's a bit odd, I've got a special principal's wave that they do to me, and you know, they ask to see my socks because I always wear little funny character socks and so on each day. Yeah, I've got.

Siobhan:

I'm checking them out right now.

Shannon:

I spy some today.

Chris:

Do you know what's funny? It was the hardest part of my choice about what to wear today is what socks to wear, because I thought, do I just go corporate black, or? No, embrace who you are. Spotty socks. We're going to do it. And all of that's great except when you go to the shopping centre and you see the kids and they do this funny wave to you and ask to see your socks while you're in the milk section. And it's, yeah, just a bit bizarre. But it’s, you know, you still, you need to,

Shannon:

It’s that connection.

Chris:

Well you need to make those connections, whereas when you're the classroom teacher, those connections just happen. So, it's sort of facilitating that, but also looking for where your influence is in a broader sense.

Shannon:

Absolutely. And having those little connections and little moments with students across the school, that inherently will help you down the line as well, like you know, building that respect as a school principal, letting your students know that you are there for them as well, in, you know, those little ways. It's nice.

Siobhan:

I think what you said as well about, you know, you're leading not just your classroom, but now a whole group of students, I think obviously by association, then you've got your whole entire staff body as well to lead and grow with. So, I'm interested to hear about what strategies do you actually use for growing the skill set within your team to build a supportive and cohesive executive, and by association, classroom teachers as well?

Chris:

Yeah, look, I think when you look at all the different, I guess, research around what a good leader is and what people, what we want in leadership, particularly in education, I look at all those different skills and I look at what's the easiest to teach and what's the hardest. And for me, one of the hardest skills to teach is interpersonal skills, because that's something that you've spent your whole life either developing or not. And if you've got those interpersonal skills, those soft skills to be able to, you know, show emotional intelligence, build relationships with other people, that goes a long way to supporting all of the other things. Because I can teach you how to make a timetable. You know, I can sit you down and show you how to change your pedagogical practice and improve your education skills, but it's really hard for me to teach you how to connect with the other people within the school. So what we try to do, I think, is make sure that we're looking at the relationships within our staff, within our executive. Making sure that we're a tight, cohesive group, as you say, and that everybody is really well connected and everybody's got really strong relational trust, everybody's got each other's back. Because if everyone's supporting each other, when you do get thrown these challenges, everybody works together really collaboratively to make sure that you're solving those problems, because there's always a solution. It's one of the, I've probably got 2 or 3 things that I say to my executive team that every time I say it, they sort of roll their eyes. They're like, 'Oh, here he goes again.' But I always say there's no such thing as problems, only opportunities, because there's always an opportunity to solve things.

Siobhan:

I know somebody who may have taken that line from you.

Shannon:

Literally. I only believe in opportunities.

Siobhan:

That's right.

Shannon:

And I say it constantly, and Siobhan too, probably like your executive team, Siobhan will roll her eyes at me for such good advice.

Chris:

It's great advice because it changes your mindset. If you look at everything as a problem, then you're always approaching.

Shannon:

You have a negative, yeah.

Chris:

That's right.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Chris:

Whereas if it's an opportunity, you say, 'Okay, here's an opportunity for building success or change.'

Shannon:

You tackle it in a different manner, yeah.

Chris:

That's right. And I think that positive, like, the other thing I say is always positivity breeds positivity, and negativity does the same, and it stems from that same mentality. If you go in looking for the positive in a situation and looking for how you can build rather than, you know, how are we going to get around this. It changes the way you deal with stuff.

Shannon:

I think it was a big part of my pedagogy as a teacher as well, just sort of like building up that culture of like, it's okay to make mistakes,vbut we need to look at it, you know, how can we solve this together? Like, being really solution-focused. Because I feel that built my classroom up and created an environment where the students were, you know, sort of building each other up to be able to take risks as well. So, I like how you've sort of, it's a transferable skill, I guess, is what I'm trying to summarise in that.

Siobhan:

Yeah, and I feel like I've learned that from great leaders in my time in schools as well. In fact, one of the first ever applications I wrote, I gave it to a retired principal to look at, and she handed it back to me after reading the first sentence and said, 'I can't see any of you in here.' Like it just didn't have my personality within that. And I kind of stopped and thought, 'Oh, I can, inject a bit of my philosophy or my why and who I am,' rather than just, you know, putting out random lines that relate to the middle leadership’s statements. And that was really a pivotal moment for me because I felt like I saw those values in leadership, the interpersonal skills, the ‘why’ of why you would want to become a leader. So, I think that your philosophy aligns with, how to grow a great leader in that sense, which is good.

Chris:

You know what’s funny about that? The first CV that I sent off before to my principal when I was going for a deputy's role, I still remember her first feedback was, 'This is garbage. You're never going to get the job.' And the reason I bring that up

Siobhan:

Noted.

Chris:

Is because I had such a great relationship with her that she'd built with me that she could say that and it didn't break my heart. It didn't upset me. I was disappointed obviously, but I took that as, 'Okay, well now I've got to do better,' because that's the feedback and that’s, I mean, she was more specific after that, she didn't just. But, you know, and again, it goes back to that relational trust stuff and building those relationships.

Siobhan:

Yeah, definitely.

Shannon:

Absolutely. So taking us back, how did you balance being a really good teacher when you first went into an assistant principal role? Because that's the role where you are still on class in a school, but you're also balancing that leadership hat that you, you know, are building up a team, facilitating and collaborating across your stage or your group, but also looking after your own class.

Chris:

Mm, yeah. It's a really, really good question. I often tell people the best teacher I ever was, was the year before I became an assistant principal. And I know that that's, like, not a great thing to say,but it was just because I put so much into the job because I loved it and it wasn't work. It was something that I really enjoyed. And when I became an assistant principal, I still did that, but I now, as you said, had to diversify what I was doing more broadly across the whole school and have more of a strategic approach to what was happening within the school. So, when I got into that zone, you're sort of straddling that fence, aren't you, between being a leader within the school and also a teacher and focusing on your students. And I think you start to then lean into what you were really good at and just constantly make sure that you're drawing upon that. I think the challenge becomes keeping yourself fresh, so still looking for what is the next thing and continuing to grow your pedagogy. And I think the way that you do that is you start to look for, 'Okay, well, I'm now supporting a whole team of people. I need to develop their capacity. The best way for me to develop them is to develop myself, model what I want to see within them.' So I would look at growing myself as a teacher as a function of all my staff that I was working with. As an AP, it was just working within that smaller team that I had. But then, the ancillary sort of side effect of that or whatever was the fact that I became better within the classroom myself. I was also a big believer in having people come in and watch you teach. It's a really vulnerable thing to do, I think, that you sort of put yourself out there,particularly when you're in a leadership position, because I think when you're a classroom teacher, people come in, nobody expects you to be brilliant. People expect that you'll be good, but there's no expectation that you're going to be the model of everything that's great. Whereas when you're an assistant principal or deputy principal or even a principal, people expect that you are going to absolutely hit it out of the park every single time and that's just not the reality of it. So having people come in, be vulnerable in front of them, let them critique what you’re doing, and then going into other people's classrooms because everybody has something to teach you. And just going in within that space and building your team within that sort of framework, it creates, I guess, more of a focus, I guess, for you to come back to the students. And even as we move past the assistant principal stuff into the deputy and the principal, every single decision that I make is about children. Like that's at the core of what we do. And if that's what you're doing as a principal and that's what you're doing as an assistant principal, deputy principal, whatever level you're at, it's always going to come back to making sure that those children are getting what they need out of you and keeping your focus sharp down that sort of lens.

Siobhan:

So is there a way to prepare, you know, someone for their first year in leadership? Like, do you have any advice for somebody who's stepping into an AP role for the first time or a head teacher role in a secondary setting?

Chris:

Yeah, look, I think the biggest mistake I made when I first went in was that I thought that I had to be perfect. And I went in, because I moved schools. A lot of the time you will move schools, but some of the time you become an assistant principal within your own school, which I think has its own level of challenges and navigating that sort of space. But I went into this new school and I had this idea that everybody in that school wanted me to be perfect and to prove, it's almost like I felt I needed to prove to them that I was deserving of the role that I got. And I think that was a big mistake because I think I proved it more once I just allowed myself to be myself and allowed myself to make mistakes and recognise that, just like you were saying before, Shannon, that mistakes are part of that learning journey. And that I'm going to make mistakes along the way and be kind to myself when those mistakes happen. So, that's probably the best advice I would give. Be kind to yourself and allow yourself to ask questions and recognise that you don't have all the answers straight away.

Shannon:

And it's funny because I think we put that expectation on ourselves to have all the answers, but, you know, often your team is not expecting you to have all of the answers. But as long as you're open and honest and sort of, again, coming back to that relational trust, you know, building that. Nobody's perfect and if we all had the answers or if there was one golden book of the answers, it'd be a very different world. So just having that compassion, I suppose, for yourself as well.

Chris:

Look, there's no harsher critic that I've had throughout my whole career than myself and that’s, you know, I know we were talking before about the children's love to point out when you write something on the board and there's a mistake somewhere in there. It's like the best thing that's ever happened to them, their teacher's made an error. But, like, I genuinely criticise myself just about every day. And it's a matter of doing that with kindness though, and not just beating yourself to a pulp about, you know, a time that you slipped up with something that you did, a decision you made that wasn't quite right, forgetting a meeting. That was the thing that was really getting me in my first year, because I'd gone from a school where I knew the structures inside and out. I knew everything about that school. I knew when the meetings were. I knew where to be, what to do. You know,they talked about an event, I'd run that event 5 times myself, I knew it. Into a new school where their learning and support meeting was on a different day, their communication was on a different day.

Shannon:

Completely out of your comfort zone. Yeah.

Chris:

Yeah, I had no idea. And I forgot about a meeting one day, and it was the worst thing in my eyes that I'd embarrassed myself by forgetting to go to a meeting. I look at it now and I just think,

Siobhan:

So what? Yeah.

Chris:

Yeah, who cares. Like, it's not as though I was sitting, reading a book, you know, in the sunshine..

Siobhan:

So long as you're not missing the meeting every Tuesday for the rest of the year.

Chris:

Yeah, look, I wouldn't advertise,

Siobhan:

We'll give you grace for the once-off..

Chris:

I wouldn't advocate doing that, no.

Shannon:

Ah, you know, we've got the Outlook calendar there now that can remind us so those things don't happen anymore.

Siobhan:

Definitely.

Shannon:

Well, you know, you've obviously gone through the motions going from a classroom teacher into an AP and then to a DP, et cetera. What advice would you give to someone who is starting out, beginning teacher, early career teacher at the moment, looking towards moving into leadership? What kind of things can they be looking out for within a school to build up their skills?

Chris:

Look, I think the number one most important thing is, that I've learned anyway, is to be the best at your current job, okay. Don't look to that next step and say, ‘I've got to do all of that,’ because none of that matters if you're not doing what you're currently doing well. Because every step of the way, you need those skills from the previous level to succeed at that next level. So, that'd be my first bit of advice. Make sure that you are being really good at whatever level you're at.

Siobhan:

Yeah, honing in on your craft development.

Shannon:

Develop your craft.

Siobhan:

So important before you go and take a leap and say, 'Oh, I want to be X,Y,Z.' Yeah,top and reflect and say, 'Have I mastered or at least

Chris:

100%.

Siobhan:

Feel extremely confident in delivering all aspects of my teaching role?’

Chris:

Yeah, spot on. And I think the next thing after that would be to opt in. Like, I know that sounds like a really small bit of advice, but that's actually a really big thing. Opt in to everything. You know, schools are a really diverse place with so many different layers to them in terms of things that you can do and opportunities. Take them all on. You know, when I first started, I got stitched up a little bit if I'm going to be completely honest. I sat next to, straight out of uni, first year, sat down, sat next to this lady who was just a beautiful human and great teacher and somebody who was very supportive of me as I moved on in my career. But they ran through the roles and responsibilities. They put up a big piece of butcher's paper and they had all the jobs down that they needed to be done in the school and the first job was soccer coach. And she said, 'Oh, young male teacher, you'd be really good as a soccer coach. You should do this.' And I had these words echoing in my head from my principal who wasn't there on that day saying, 'Don't put your hand up for too much stuff.' And I thought, 'No, but I do love, I love soccer. Yeah, okay, I'll do that.' Anyway, and then the next job came up and it was the rugby league coach, and she leaned in and she said, 'You know, young male teacher.' And I said, 'I love rugby league. Yeah, I'll do that.'

Siobhan:

She's lining you up for it.

Chris:

And then she did it for public speaking, debating, boys' singing group, all these different things and,

Shannon:

You were running the whole school.

Chris:

Well, the one where I finally clocked on to what was happening was she said, 'Oh, the university competitions would be really good for a young male teacher.' I was like, 'Why? What could that possibly be good for?' And look, it was a tough year because I did opt in to too much, and I wouldn't suggest people do that in their first year out. But I think that idea of doing everything you possibly can, you know, I'd go to every single disco, whenever there was a dress up day, I'd be dressed up. And I still do that now, but I think that sort of, you put yourself out there for everything.

Shannon:

You’re embedding yourself in the school culture and the school community as well by opting in to those kind of things.

Chris:

Yeah, a hundred percent. Well, that's the thing, we're looking at all the stakeholders, right. You talk about staff, students, community, all those sorts of things. You need to be a leader for all of them. You can't just pick and choose, 'Oh, I'm going to be this leader who looks after the children, but I'm not going to worry about the staff, I'm not going to worry about the parents.' It's got to be that you're there for everything. So opt in, get involved in everything, and, yeah, embrace everything that school has to offer.

Shannon:

Yeah, holistic.

Siobhan:

And when you are early career, it is quite common to sort of opt into something that's within your comfort zone. But I think that you find as you get more confident, you know, running or assisting with whole-school programs or assisting with, like, school curriculum groups and things like that, then you start to think, 'Okay, how can I challenge myself?' Or, 'How can I look to, you know, up into a new skill set?' You may have been the sports person for X amount of years. It's okay to say, 'Actually, I'd really like to tap into and find out a bit more about the wellbeing team and get involved there.' So, yeah, my career looked really similar. Like, first year out, I was an assistant year advisor, so I got to learn from an incredible colleague and kind of, yeah, learn the ropes in a less, I suppose, serious way or high stakes way, and that was really important for me. And then I kind of just like grew into the whole-school leadership roles as I went on. And I think that that natural development of my skill set was really beneficial because I could still find my feet in the classroom at the time. But then I was able to move on and progress into, you know, my whole-school passions of high potential and gifted education or debating and public speaking. Mentoring beginning teachers was also really important to me as I progressed throughout my career. So, I think yeah, tapping into that advice, opt in, within reason. But once you've started to build a bit more experience, opt in to other things that may be outside of your comfort zone because you might end up loving it, so.

Chris:

Spot on.

Shannon:

I love that. And I think same with me, like, started small. And Chris, you'll probably remember this. We had an external company that came in for gymnastics for the students, and I actually think it was you that tapped me on the shoulder and was like, 'You know, Shannon, we need someone to make the timetable.'

Siobhan:

So, circling back, you got stitched up by the lady that you sat next to at your first day of school, and in turn you then passed it over to Shannon.

Chris:

Well you'll notice that when I said it, because I knew that this may end up coming up. I don't know exactly, I stitched her up on a number of things, but you'll notice I said I thought really highly of her. She was a great supporter. Same thing applies.

Siobhan:

That's right, and

Shannon:

I haven't yet. Don't minute that.

Siobhan:

We should rephrase our wording. It's not a stitch up. It's merely an opportunity.

Shannon:

It was an opportunity.

Siobhan:

An opportunity to grow.

Shannon:

And let me tell you, we were up to version 7 of the timetable that I had to create. The opportunity just kept on giving, because working in such a big school, there were so many classes to cater for. And you know, as a beginning teacher, I didn't exactly have the whole scope of, you know, what time people have library at and what time people had relief from face-to-face teaching and what time scripture was at, for example. There was all these little things that I didn't sort of, like, put in when I was making the timetable. Anyways, I had a lot of guidance and we got there in the end. But, you know, that was a good experience because it taught me to sort of look broader than what's going on in my own backyard, per se, like my own class. Like, what's going on across Stage 1, for example. And then as the years went on, I was, you know, so interested in, I sort of really liked technology. So then I joined the digital technologies team, and then I was moved into, like, numeracy as a KLA, leading that at a whole-school level. And I dabbled in the science KLA. So, it's really cool to get that whole-school experience, you know, like you said, with training wheels on kind of thing, like shadowing, join a team. And then as you develop your craft, and I would recommend curriculum as a primary school teacher. I think I learned so much about my own pedagogy and how the curriculum, sort of the A - Z, K - 6 wide, was really beneficial for me as a teacher at a whole-school level. So, I feel like that really helped me develop full leadership skills later on.

Siobhan:

So, were you an early career teacher when Chris was sort of your AP/DP?

Shannon:

A DP. I was fresh out of uni, a first year.

Siobhan:

I'd be interested to hear, because we don't often get visitors to the couch who actually have a connection, a past connection. So, I'd love to hear, putting you on the spot a little bit, what did you learn from Chris? And Chris, what did you learn from Shannon in that experience?

Chris:

Well, I love the first half of that question. I'm looking forward to hearing this answer.

Shannon:

Okay. Well, look, I've spoken about this before in previous episodes, but I had extremely high expectations of myself. And, you know, I'm not going to lie, there were times that I put too many expectations of myself and they were too high. For whatever reason, I was very much a perfectionist in my early years and I put a lot into my work. I was working very long hours. And I think Chris sort of told me that it's okay to step back from it and like you are a human first. But there was a lot of times that I would come in and ask for advice about things or how to approach situations and Chris was always, had a really, like, open-door policy, I suppose. He often, he like sat in his office and he would turn the chair when you would come in the door. I always remember, and it was almost like you were always disturbing him, but I never felt like it was an issue because you always had such a, like, a welcome policy, I suppose. And I've worked for a number of different leaders, and I think that's something that I very much value, that I could pop in and have a chat about whatever it was going on in my day.

Chris:

Do you know why I did that? Do you remember why I did that? So I used to have my office set up so that my computer faced a wall, and the reason I did that was so that I didn’t want, I wanted to give, if somebody came into my office, I wanted to give them a hundred percent attention.

Chris:

And if I had the computer there, you can't help it. You're sort of just drawn to, an email pops up or something. So I would have it against the wall, so I would have to turn my whole body around, so that that's all they were getting. And it's really funny, and this is the funny thing about leadership,our intention isn't always the outcome. As it turns out, that that made certain people feel uncomfortable, that I had an intense focus on them.

Shannon:

I used to think it was quite funny. You’d just, like, spin around.

Siobhan:

I've been expecting you.

Shannon:

Drama, drama, drama.

Chris:

That's right. I had a cat just that I would stroke. 'We've been waiting Mr Bond.'

Shannon:

No, but I really appreciated it as a beginning teacher because, and Siobhan and I have spoken about this before, it can be daunting to go and speak to executive, especially in your first year. And that's not to say that the executive sort of makes this sort of environment that you feel that way, but you don't want to get things wrong and you want to just try your best. And at the time, I was also on a temporary contract and I was sort of striving for a permanent substantive position. So, I put that sort of pressure on myself to always be doing the right thing. So I really appreciated just having an open-door policy of being able to come in and get advice.

Chris:

Well, you know what's funny is that a friend of ours that worked at the same time, she used to come in, she was a beginning teacher, and she would come in and she'd have these Post-its, 101 questions, you know, that she wanted to ask. And I remember one of the saddest days for me was the day when she walked in and she said, like it was sad but proud at the same time, she came in and I said, 'Oh, where are your Post-its?' She said, 'I don't have any Post-its.'

Siobhan:

No notes today.

Chris:

'I don't have any more questions.' And I'm like, it was sort of like, 'Oh, like, this is great. I've supported her to this point.' But it was also a little bit like, 'I'm useless to her now. My purpose is no longer.’

Siobhan:

I've imparted all my wisdom.

Chris:

Yeah.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Chris:

Yeah.

Siobhan:

So what did you learn from Shannon?

Chris:

What did I learn from Shannon?

Siobhan:

Or just by mentoring beginning teachers in general. Like, what did you learn about perhaps yourself?

Chris:

Look, it's funny, I think it changed, I mentioned this earlier, it changed my focus within education, what I wanted to do. Because when I left my assistant principal's role to go into the deputy space, one of the things that I was finding most difficult about leaving, and it was so strange to me, was that it wasn't the children. So, when I left my first school, I was devastated about leaving my class. I was heartbroken I was leaving those children. When I left from the assistant principal's role, I was still upset that I was leaving my students, but I was actually, there was 4 or 5 beginning teachers, and I felt really bad that I was leaving them. And when I came to the school where Shannon and I worked, it was a very different environment. It was a high-performing school. There was a lot of pressure and expectation, it was very different from where I'd come from, and I wanted to really support them and help them. And it's funny because, you know, if I was doing leadership identification, one of the things that would be really important for me is work ethic and interpersonal skills. And it's funny because they’re the things that Shannon sort of touched on just then. And I guess that's where I sort of learned from Shannon and a lot of these other beginning teachers that we had within the school, that that's where my passion started to lie. Like, supporting those great people that we've got within the system to become the best versions of themselves. And listening to Shannon talk about that timetable, like 7 goes or whatever it was, but that's,

Shannon:

Bring it up again.

Chris:

Well, but it's 6 steps towards success, right?

Siobhan:

Yeah, you worked hard at it.

Chris:

And supporting them through that failure to grow into, you know, the people that you said. Like, I don't know if it's silly to say, but I'm really proud of where she's gone to, but I'm really proud of so many of the people that I've supported in that time. And it's something that makes, you know, I think when my career’s all said and done and I'm finished, that's the stuff I'm going to hang my hat on and say, like, 'I'm really proud that I was able to help those people.'

Siobhan:

Yeah, your protégés.

Shannon:

Just know, I make a mean timetable now.

Chris:

Don't need 7 goes now.

Shannon:

Colour-coded and all. Let me tell you. Even automated.

Siobhan:

I love it.

Shannon:

You've spoken with me previously about the Aspiring Leaders Program and the impact it's had on aspiring leaders in your school. Could you talk me through a little bit about what that looks like?

Chris:

Yeah, so we’re part of a learning community in the area that I'm from and that learning community put together an Aspiring Leaders Program. This goes back, ooh, 2015, 2016 in that sort of window. I'm not 100% sure on the years. And it was an opportunity to build that pipeline of leaders and really support aspiring leaders to grow their skills. We paired people up with mentors from across different schools and built this model of support within that learning community so that everyone got what they needed. So you were again, paired up with a different mentor based on your personality type. We did work with FranklinCovey and all that sort of, 'The 7 habits of highly effective people'. We did growth coaching, we did all sorts of different things to build people's capacity. And it's really interesting because at the time, it was, well, I thought anyway, it was quite innovative. And at the time I was a deputy principal supporting aspiring leaders. And I look at, and it's funny because the school I'm in now was not the school I was at at the time, but they were within the same learning community. Every single one of the people that were in that program have now gone into a leadership position and are thriving, and doing really well. And again, so proud of all of those people. And since then, there's now a lot of different things within the department, the Middle Leadership Development Program, the School Leadership Institute. There's so many different things that support leadership development, and it's really just a matter of then, us as school leaders, helping support teachers along that journey. So, I've got 2 at the moment going through the School Leadership Identification Framework. It's just SLIF in my head and I'm just trying to remember what the acronym stands for.

Chris:

And again, 2 totally different people going through 2 totally different journeys, but I'm really excited about where it could take them, and optimistic that they'll do really well out of it. I got a message walking in here today from somebody who I used to work with, a teacher at my current school, who's now a principal. And it's just, like, saying that, that I've been able to play a really small part in supporting her to get to where she is through different initiatives. She wasn't part of Aspiring Leaders, but she has definitely been somebody who's been very capable for her whole career and just supporting her to get to where she is now. I'd love to say it was all me. I would love to say she had no chance up until I came along, but it's just providing her with that support and guidance to get there.

Shannon:

Yeah, and that stepping stone towards her career growth as well. And then, you know, what an incredible feat to be able to then be shoulder to shoulder per se, you know, with someone who worked with you and now alongside you as a principal. That's a really cool thing to have that systematic sort of, like, impact I suppose. They've gone from, you know, having that impact on the students at that one school, now, taking those key learnings and those skills that they've developed there in that context to a new context and having, you know, the next lot of students benefit from that.

Chris:

I remember my first school that I worked at when I left to become an assistant principal. One of my best friends, I met him through working in the school, he started the year after me. He picked up an assistant principal's role the year after I did. As one of our colleagues likes to point out, 6 months earlier relative to when he started when I did it. So, but I remember when he left and him and I ran a lot within the school. We did a lot of wellbeing programs, all the co-curricular stuff, pedagogy, all sorts of different things within the school. And I remember a conversation that I had with the principal from that school at the time, who said that, like I said to him, 'How are you going to cope? The 2 of us have left, John and I have left. Like, I know that's going to leave a hole.' And it wasn't arrogance, it was just recognising that we did a lot around the place. And he said, 'Look, it'll definitely leave a void.' But what he said was, he said, 'Look, it looks so good for our school that we've been able to build you and develop you, and it speaks volumes for what we are doing within our school.' And he was so proud of what we'd gone and accomplished. And he said, 'We're all a system. Like, we're all here.’ You don't come out of university saying, ‘I want to teach these children. These are the only ones I want to support.' And that teacher that I'm referring to, that's now a principal, she's working so far away. You know, she was impacted by the flooding and all that sort of stuff. Like, I was dealing with the challenges of COVID. I've got nothing on what she was dealing with. She's had to rebuild a whole school. She's amazing. But just watching that just really does fill your bucket to see how well they've developed and grown.

Siobhan:

So, do you, like, you're talking about how your principal perceived you moving on into a leadership role at a different school as a positive. How do you view it as a principal who grows great leaders? How do you view that? Is it a challenge, moving your great leaders who go on to work in different schools? Or what's your perception of that?

Chris:

It's really funny. It's this double-edged sword and it's a changing of mind shift, I think, when I first, mindset, sorry. When I first started, I was just all about my classroom. I didn't really care about anything outside of those 30 kids. They were my family and I just wanted to get the best for them. And as I moved through leadership pathways there, I recognise more and more that we're all working towards the same goal across the system. And so for me, the pride that I have in sending these people from my school who are brilliant at what they do and have these outstanding capabilities as leaders, into other schools, well, I'm just helping each of those schools and helping the children in each of those schools. You know, I'm dealing with at the moment, I've got this absolutely phenomenal assistant principal at my school who came through as she was a classroom teacher. I could just tell from the day I landed there, she was going to be a great AP. You could just tell, she was just made for it. And it's funny because she didn't see it in herself. But supported her. She's now in an assistant principal's role and I know that I've done too good a job because she is going to want to leave at some point. And I think I'm going to really wrestle with that because I don't want her to go because she does so much for our children and our community. But again, we're a system, and wherever she goes, that school will really benefit from whatever she brings. And yeah, you got to take a lot of pride, you know, from that.

Shannon:

I'd be really interested to hear as well, because I think not everyone goes from being a classroom teacher to an assistant principal, deputy principal, et cetera. What were some of the key takeaways, I suppose, moving from classroom teacher to AP and so forth? Because you would've faced different challenges, I suppose, and each role would've had contextual differences between, you know, you'd be dealing with students versus staff members versus community members. So, what was that sort of like?

Chris:

The AP role, you have to think about so many different things. So you're thinking about your class, you're thinking about the parents, you're thinking about the principal of the school, you're thinking about the leadership team, you're thinking about the event on Friday, the event in 3 months, the classroom planning. There's so many things to consider and think about and factor into what you're doing and it's not as straightforward as just going, 'Okay, well, I'm just going to teach my class today.' And as you work further up, the people that you have to worry about just become broader and what you have to plan for becomes broader and the strategic thinking behind what you have to do. But all of that's really positive. I think as I've gone through each of those steps and those layers, I've learned more about myself along that way and what I want to be for different people. And, you know, I think if I'm going to be honest, one of the hardest parts about it is as you go further up, it does become more isolating. And that's when you have to lean into your networks outside of your school. You know, and for me, I know that if I have a problem within the school, I can pick up the phone to, you know, 20 different people and I know they'll help me and support me because I've built those networks outside of the school. But I know when I was a teacher, everybody would've been there to pick me up.

Shannon:

Yeah, it's very different. I even remember actually, when we did work at the same school together, there was a certain club that used to happen after school. It was an Ice Cream Club.

Chris:

It was, ICC.

Shannon:

Fill Siobhan in a little bit on that.

Chris:

So, every Friday, the Ice Cream Club would meet, and

Siobhan:

Very serious business that is, yeah.

Chris:

Yeah, and we would rotate through, different types of ice creams to try. It all started because one of the beginning teachers mentioned that she had never had a Maxibon.

Siobhan:

Oh, criminal.

Chris:

Thank you. Right, okay.

Shannon:

It’s an Australian rite of passage.

Chris:

She'd also never had a Gaytime. And another beginning teacher

Siobhan:

Don't say Bubble O' Bill is next on the list.

Chris:

No, no, but we were having a discussion about which was better out of the 2, and then from that, the Ice Cream Club was born. We started with 2 weeks, trying 2 different ice creams, and then it just grew and grew and grew. And we started to rate them. And so every Friday there'd be this group of teachers up there in the staffroom just sitting around having an ice cream.

Siobhan:

I love it.

Chris:

And the only condition of joining was that when it was your turn, you had to buy enough ice cream for everyone. We ran out of ice creams to try. We had to diversify into tubs and it was awesome. It's the best.

Shannon:

Very open and welcoming club.

Siobhan:

Where do I sign up?

Shannon:

Anyone was welcome to join.

Chris:

Well, we did start to notice a few people who were not in Ice Cream Club just started to randomly appear in the staffroom on a Friday just in case there happened to be a spare one because they come in boxes of 4. So, yeah. Yeah, no, I miss Ice Cream Club to be honest with you. I need to start it at my new school.

Shannon:

Yeah. Not a bad idea to put forward.

Siobhan:

But I love, I think that's the best part about schools. Like, there's just those little pockets of, like, things that maybe separate you from your work. And that's just, I don't know, the relationships and connections that you can build. It doesn't always have to be related to school. It could be something as simple as the Ice Cream Club. But I just think that’s, yeah, it's just so special, I think, like, to have somewhere that you can experience that and build those bonds and feel safe and have a laugh and have a Maxibon.

Chris:

You know, like, but it's really funny. I mentioned before that John, the teacher that I worked with, he's the godfather of my son. Like, and that's somebody who I met through teaching. The amount of my teachers who have been bridesmaids or groomsmen at their colleagues' weddings. One of my teachers is getting married later in the year, and it's a Friday wedding and I'm going to have to shut the school, I think. I don't know how I'm going to staff the place because everybody wants to go. Because you do just form those really tight connections.

Siobhan:

It's a community, yeah.

Chris:

It's amazing.

Shannon:

Yeah, like 2 of the teachers that I started as a beginning teacher with, none of us are in the same place anymore. But they are 2 of the people that I speak to the most, that I see the most, that will be my friends for years and years to come. And the fact that we have that shared couple of years that we all sort of like, I remember to this day, we would stay back after school and mark our homework together, for example. And it's those little things that in your first couple of years of teaching, those foundational friendships are so valuable and you just carry them forward. Schools are a very special place.

Siobhan:

Agreed. Thank you to our wonderful listeners for tuning in to the Teach NSW Podcast today. I know that I really appreciated Chris' raw, open honesty in your journey throughout the classroom space into leadership, and how you then share those passions and expertise with other great leaders. So, thank you so much for joining us today. We hope that you enjoyed this episode. Be sure to tune in to the future episodes of the Teach NSW Podcast. Bye.

Shannon:

See you next time.

Shannon:

Thank you for tuning in to the Teach NSW Podcast, where we explore the dynamic world of education. Don't forget to follow, like, and subscribe to be notified when new episodes become available. You can find us on social media via our handle @TeachNSW. Until next time, keep learning, keep teaching, and keep making a difference. The Teach NSW Podcast is a podcast by the Teach NSW team from the NSW Department of Education.