Siobhan:

I'd like to acknowledge that this episode of the Teach NSW Podcast was recorded on the homelands of the Darug people. I'd like to pay respect to Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today.

Opening Credits:

Welcome to the Teach NSW Podcast, a podcast by teachers for teachers. I'm Shannon, and I'm Siobhan.

Shannon:

We are joining you again, your hosts, myself, Shannon, and Siobhan here next to me. But we are joined by a very special guest, we've got Kerry on the couch with us. Kerry has over 50 years experience teaching and leading in different contexts across NSW public schools and she joins us today to talk about giving back to the educational community and her interest in mentoring current and future principals. So, thank you for joining us Kerry.

Kerryanne:

It's an absolute pleasure.

Shannon:

And welcome to the couch.

Siobhan:

Yeah. Something that we like to do with our guests is a bit of a warm-up, but today we're going to ask you just to share with us, what are you reading, watching, or listening to at the moment? So, you don't have to cover all 3, but.

Kerryanne:

No, alright, well actually, at the moment, I've just finished reading 'The Women’, by, I think it's Hannah Kent* was the author. And it was about the nurses in the Vietnam War during the Vietnam War. Very powerful novel. It was excellent, and about women's courage.

Siobhan:

I'm going to have to add it to my 'to read' list.

Shannon:

Yeah, absolutely. I actually did just finish reading a little while ago, and I really enjoyed it, 'Atomic Habits’. Quite a good book, talks about like just making small, incremental changes, just to make yourself an all-around better person.

Siobhan:

Yes, I like that. I'm a big fan of habits. I don't sometimes, or I don't always practice what I preach, but I'm aware.

Shannon:

Yeah, we're just trying. We're out here doing our best every day.

Siobhan:

I'm aware of 'The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People’.

Kerryanne:

That's good because I taught that for 8 years.

Siobhan:

Did you? Tell us a bit more.

Kerryanne:

I did, I did. I loved Covey, Stephen Covey. I loved his books, and I read them a lot as a leader and encouraged others to do it. And at one time in the department, everybody, every principal had to go through 'The 7 Habits’. So, it was huge in south-west Sydney in particular and from that particular professional learning, I was asked to join FranklinCovey to go and teach it across Australia and Vietnam and, where else did I go? New Zealand. And it was probably a children's version called 'The Leader in Me’, which was based on 'The 7 Habits’. So, it was great experience. I loved it.

Siobhan:

The places you can go.

Shannon:

Absolutely, I was about say, given your years of experience, but I also feel like knowing you and talking to you, you've lived like 12 lives in the Department of Education almost. It's like they say the cat lives 9 lives. Well, you've lived 12, Kerry. But take us back. Where did it all begin? Why teaching?

Kerryanne:

Look, I wanted to be a teacher from the moment that I stepped into a school. I went to Leichhardt Primary School and from the moment that I stepped in and met my Kindergarten teacher, who was lovely, I thought, 'Oh, I'd like to be a teacher.' And every year, I got lovely teachers, some of them a little bit more stern than the others, but I still liked the idea of teaching. And then I think I had a year where I wanted to be a hairdresser, and clearly my hair and hairdressing was not going to be a good model. So, I went back to teaching and I got a Commonwealth Scholarship when I left in Year 12, and I also got a Teacher Scholarship. So, I chose the Teacher Scholarship and went to Sydney University and then Sydney Teachers' College when it was a teachers' college in those days, and never looked back. Absolutely loved every moment. I always say, even to my kids, that there's not many people that can say the career that you chose was the right one, and you had so many opportunities, and you lived a really wonderful life because of it, and teaching was just great for me.

Shannon:

So, when you think of those teachers back at school that you had in your primary school years, was there one that was sort of a pivotal person that made you think, 'Right, this is who I want to aspire to be?'

Kerryanne:

Absolutely. And she called her daughter after me.

Shannon:

Oh my goodness.

Kerryanne:

It was in Year 4 and, am I allowed to mention her name?

Shannon:

Yeah.

Kerryanne:

Her name was Kathy Bradley and she came into Leichhardt Public School, and she looked so perfect. She had beautiful suits on, and she always looked as though she worked in the corporate area. And I used to think to myself, 'Oh goodness, you look smart.' But she was so kind and so enthusiastic about learning that I think that was the year that I learnt so much. And I went to the library to find out more about some of the things that we were learning. And she also talked about her home life and her family, and what she wanted to do with her family, and she was pregnant at the time. And she said to me, 'Do you mind if I have a daughter if I call her Kerryanne?' And I went, 'No, not at all.' And she did and I have kept in contact over the years. Unfortunately, I haven't seen her in the last 5 years but yeah, she was my inspiration. I loved her.

Siobhan:

I think there's so many teachers off the top of my head that I could name as well, and it's just so, I think that's another great thing about teaching is that you don't realise the immediate impact that you're having on people's lives and how far and wide your name can spread across the community in a positive way, and I think that's just one of the joys of teaching as well.

Kerryanne:

Well, I will tell you a funny story because another high school teacher who was the English teacher, she introduced us to the book, 'Mrs Dalloway' by Virginia Woolf It was a really hard book, but I loved it because of the way that she presented it and the way she allowed us to discuss it, so much so that at the Year 12 graduation, I wore a hat. And when I went up to get my certificate, she said, 'Congratulations, Clarissa.'

Shannon:

Aw. Yeah.

Kerryanne:

And she made that whole book come to life. I had fantastic teachers.

Shannon:

And I think both examples you've just given of the teacher that named her daughter after you, but I see that they've really put time into those connections and showed who they are as people as well, to be able to relate with their students, and I think that pays off in dividends as well.

Kerryanne:

Absolutely. And I think that's important in teaching, because I still keep in contact with students that I've taught and a couple of times I've said, 'What's your memory of me?' And they go, 'You were always fair. You listen to every side of the story, rather than make up your mind before you had a chance to hear what was really going on.' So, I think that's important.

Shannon:

That's a testament.

Siobhan:

Yeah. So, I'm interested to hear from you, Kerryanne, what other opportunities you've been afforded as part of the NSW public education system, either as a classroom teacher or a leader?

Kerryanne:

Loads of opportunities and I think if you're a teacher and you want to stay in the classroom, that's fine but if you want opportunity, I think it's out there. You can grab anything. So, I also liked music. Terrible singer, but I loved choirs. So, I didn't have anybody in my school at one stage or when I was a young teacher who took the choir. So, I took the choir and before I knew it, I was in charge of the musical production in the school. From there, I worked on the Schools Spectacular. So, I could do that, which was really good. I was asked to, as part of the NSW PPA, to be the welfare officer for principals across the state. So, I took that role on for 2 years.

Siobhan:

Big responsibility.

Kerryanne:

And it was a huge responsibility, and it was a really good position to be in because you could help support principals who were having a little bit of difficulty or just needed someone to listen.

Shannon:

Yeah. And how many years were you a principal for?

Kerryanne:

Well, I started my principalship in, well, I was relieving principal, 1990. Yeah, and I became a director in 2006. So yeah, I was a principal for quite some time.

Shannon:

Quick math for those listening at home.

Kerryanne:

However many years.

Siobhan:

16 years.

Shannon:

Did you sort of when you, I know you said you always wanted to be a teacher, but was leadership in your sights early on or?

Kerryanne:

Never. No, never.

Shannon:

How did it all come to fruition?

Kerryanne:

I think that when you take on roles in a school, you actually are demonstrating that you've got some initiative. And once you start demonstrating that people start recognising it, and it just becomes that people start to follow you. So, that's the earliest start and then someone said, 'Have you thought about being an executive teacher?’ in those days, and I just went, 'No.' And they said, 'Well, how about you go for your list, and how about you have a think about it?' And I was married with a small child then and I went, 'Okay, I'll give it a go,' because it'll be good to have in the future and of course, within 2 years, I was then an ET, and then I went up to being an AP, and then it rolled from there on. Once you get into those positions, you just keep going if you want to. And I don't think you should ever stay in the one leadership position. I think if you put your hand up for a leader, that's what you do. You keep going and you lead.

Siobhan:

Definitely. I get the impression from you that, throughout your time in leadership, you certainly would've been a person that people could turn to for advice and guidance. I'm wondering what your stance is on building a culture within a school, particularly for principals, where people can turn to you to ask questions. How do you sort of build that?

Kerryanne:

Look, this is probably old school, because I know that principals are very, very busy, but we were very busy in the days that I was a principal too. But I always got in and did what I could with the kids and with the teachers. So, if we were doing professional learning on something new, I did it too because I needed to know what was going on. If we were out doing a football day and inviting footballers in, I went out into the playground and I watched the kids, and sometimes I'd have a catch and they'd all go, 'Oh, you're hopeless Miss.' But for the most, that's how I built that rapport with kids and with the parents, because the kids would go home and talk to the parents, and the parents knew they could come and have a chat to me. And the other staff of course.

Siobhan:

Yeah, I was going to say, what about with your staff? How do you build that collaboration and supportive culture I suppose?

Kerryanne:

You've always, I know it sounds just a silly thing to say, but it's an open door policy. If they need you, you're there. And there were times when I'd say to some of the staff, 'You've had a rough time. I'm just going to take your class for half an hour.'

Shannon:

So intuitive.

Siobhan:

The best. Yeah.

Kerryanne:

Yeah because there is something, you're not on the game every single day, 8 hours a day, and there are some things that happen and you say, 'Well, listen, go and have a bit of a break. I'll take your class,’ or, ‘Come and talk to me about it this afternoon and let's have a really good think about why that happened and if there was something that maybe one of us could have done differently.’ So, that was, yeah. And that builds the rapport. Being friends with the staff, absolutely, but also, being able to step back and do the right thing by departmental policy.

Shannon:

And that policy is there to help you as well.

Kerryanne:

Absolutely.

Shannon:

Policy is our friend, really. So, talk to me a little bit about your step-in then from being a primary school principal moving into a director role. What did that sort of look like? How did you, I can imagine that would be something that would be challenging in 2 senses because you're moving away from that one school environment to support across a variety of schools.

Kerryanne:

Yeah, it was very different because I also moved into that what was a DEL role then, that DEL role in my own area where I'd been a principal. So, I was a principal in an area in south-western Sydney and then I became the DEL for 32 schools there.

Shannon:

Wow.

Kerryanne:

So, I had a fairly good understanding of the area, which I think helped. I had a good understanding of the socio-economic side of it, and I knew some of the principals. So, that was a good start but it just so happened at that time I think I had to do 8 interviews because the principalship changed. So, I had to do 8 new selections, and that was good because it brought some new people into the area. I had to learn different skills. I had to use different skills because I was also the leader of the department, which is quite different to being the leader of the school and being part of that collegial group. So, I just, once again, went to the suitcase and pulled out some different skills. I was always approachable and I think one of the things that some of the principals said when I was leaving was that what you saw was what you got. They knew who I was, and they could rely on me for support when they really needed it at tough times. So, I think that was important, but I had to make sure that they were demonstrating what was happening in their school was going to result in better learning outcomes for kids.

Siobhan:

So, what advice would you give to a current principal who's looking to make an impact within their school or community? What would you tell them to really focus on?

Kerryanne:

Well, they've got to focus on student learning, definitely. And definitely focus on what those students can achieve. If they can find a way, if principals can find a way to actually engage the whole of their staff in the one kind of philosophy of learning and get that teaching happening in every classroom throughout the school, that consistency will give them better results. Most definitely. So, it's got to be consistent and it's got to be focused. And there has to be a lot of professional learning to support them in what they do because teachers don't just take things by osmosis. They have to

Shannon:

I wish we did sometimes, Kerry.

Kerryanne:

No, I wish. It would saved the department a lot of money, but there's got to be a focus on professional learning of teachers and making sure that they understand why they're doing it and then giving them time to transfer that into the classroom. That's the secret too.

Shannon:

Yeah, allowing us to digest that information that we're taking on board, put it into practice, and come back and reflect on it. It's a really good practice.

Siobhan:

Making mistakes is part of that practice too.

Kerryanne:

Absolutely.

Siobhan:

Implementing it within my classroom, oh it didn't go how I'd like it to go. Is there another teacher that's really hit the nail on the head?

Kerryanne:

Absolutely, yeah. Because there's so many things happening in education, unless we stop and let teachers actually try it in their classroom, see how it goes, talk about it, share it, get the experts in, and really focus on that particular part of learning, you're just going to be just waving around again.

Shannon:

How do you take your learnings from each different, because every context we know, every public school across the state is quite diverse and different. How do you take those key learnings to your next context and put them into practice?

Kerryanne:

Look, it's just like a suitcase. You just put things in the suitcase and you take it with you. Some days you're going to wear some of the things in there and some days you're not.

Siobhan:

Unpack it if you need it.

Kerryanne:

That's right. Some days I'm going to use some of those skills, other days I'm not, but it's there if ever I actually do need it again. But even when I was teaching or talking about leadership to young principals or young leaders, I used to say, 'If you are not prepared to actually do the hard stuff as well, you really shouldn't be in that position because you can't just be the happy little friendly person all the time who overlooks things because your responsibility is to look after those students in your school.'

Siobhan:

Absolutely. So, did you ever have a pivotal moment in your career that really defined your leadership style?

Kerryanne:

A pivotal moment. Yes, I actually did. When I was assistant principal in a school, there was a principal who was near retirement. He was gorgeous, lovely guy but he didn't want to do all of the new stuff that was coming in. So, as an assistant principal, I was doing it all, and I had a class as well, and I was doing that. I didn't mind because it was great for me, but when I got to be the principal, I thought, 'I'm not going to do that to any of my assistant principals, so I'm going to do all the stuff.' So, I did all the administration, I did as much of the executive things that I could do. What happened was I was nearly dead by second term, and the assistant principals came to me and said, 'Don't you trust us? You don't let us do anything.' And it was like, you know what,

Shannon:

Penny dropped.

Kerryanne:

The penny has dropped.

Siobhan:

I do trust you, but I've just been through this experience myself that I didn't want to impose.

Kerryanne:

That's right, and I had to stop and go, there's a different way of leadership. And I took on Covey and Fullan and all of those people, and read, and realised that, yeah, I've got to change how I think. I've got to change my leadership style. Well, I didn't have a leadership style. I was just doing everything, Autonomous. Absolutely.

Shannon:

Yeah, wow. It's that age old thing, hey, we're just lifelong learners. So, hearing from an experienced leader such as yourself, it's nice to sort of sit back and reflect and be like, 'Yeah, we're always learning. Sometimes things aren't going to go right.'

Kerryanne:

Absolutely. I mean, I was learning right up until the day that I left teaching. I was learning about people because people are your biggest educators. The way that people react to situations, the way that you have to work with people to get them to do things change, the way people accept or don't accept change, and the way you have to manage that. That takes very different skills for different people.

Shannon:

So, in your role with the Primary Principals’ Association, you would've sort of, that was all really around you giving back as well to the profession.

Kerryanne:

Absolutely.

Shannon:

So many years of experience. Tell me a little bit about your ethos about giving back to the future leaders and teachers of our next generation.

Kerryanne:

Well, even now, in the Retired Principals Association, I have a strong belief that they should still be doing things for education, that we have to stand up for public education. So, we've had a great career, we've had great opportunities, we should be giving back for our kids, our grandkids, whatever. So, I still believe that, and I believe if we don't give back to a career that has brought so much joy and success in our lives, then, I just think that we owe it to ourselves and to the pupils of NSW. It was just a career like no other and there are hundreds of people out there, teachers and leaders, who could be doing something to support public education, and we should be.

Shannon:

I was really fortunate in my first year of teaching, my beginning teacher mentor was, she had retired and come back as the beginning teacher mentor. And she had a whole career, teacher, assistant principal, she relieved in various leadership roles over the years, and I don't think, at the time, now, at this end where I'm at currently in my career, thinking back on how privileged and lucky I was to be able to have someone with so much experience. And I was like a little sponge, trying to get, suck all of the knowledge out of my mentor but to have that person be able to come back in and give back her time from her career that she'd had to help, and guide, and support beginning teachers, that was a phenomenal opportunity and I feel so fortunate to have had that.

Kerryanne:

Well, she would be fortunate too, because you have to also be willing to listen to some of the advice because there are some things, quite honestly, that we have done in the past that present teachers or executive would go, 'No, that's not going to work.' But there are so many other things that you can say, ‘Well, that could work.’ So, you've got to have someone who is willing to listen to some of the advice and take it on board and then change it to the situation at present, because that's important too. The old days are gone, so you've got to change it to the way that the environment is now and what's happening in schools, and take it on board.

Shannon:

She always used to say like, because I'd always say, 'Oh my gosh, I learned so much today.' And she was like, 'Well, do you realise how much I learnt from you? Do you know I came in and observed you and you showed me X, Y, Z that you did? I didn't even think of doing it like that.' And just hearing that as well really builds you up as a beginning teacher. I mean, no matter what spectrum of your career, there's always something we can learn from one another.

Kerryanne:

Absolutely.

Shannon:

We're all coming in with, that's another thing about schools. You've got however many people making up a staff, all coming from different walks of life, different experiences that we can bring to the table.

Kerryanne:

And I think it's a lot richer environment now because a lot of people are changing careers and bringing so much from their first career into schools. So, the opportunities there are even broader, which is great.

Siobhan:

Yeah, you're getting subject matter experts, particularly in secondary schooling as well, sort of dabbling in that space and imparting their knowledge and sharing that with other teachers too, which is really important.

Kerryanne:

Because we didn't bring that. We didn't have that. I mean, I was public education schooled, and then I went into public education, so I couldn't bring anything else except life's experiences, whereas these people are bringing business experience, industry experience, which is fabulous for kids.

Shannon:

Yeah, absolutely.

Kerryanne:

Really great.

Siobhan:

I'm interested to hear what are some other ways that people can pay it forward to the profession? What are some other ways they can give back?

Kerryanne:

Look, I think, in schools, going into schools, offering to be able to support schools these days, there’s a whole range of things they can do in schools. That mentoring, putting themselves up with the directors of education, no, they're not called that anymore.

Shannon:

Directors of educational leadership.

Kerryanne:

That's it.

Shannon:

The DELs.

Kerryanne:

That's it, the DELs. Reminding them that they are around and could actually support some of the executives in school, I think that's good. Things like offering to look at curriculum and how you could implement curriculum. What kind of clues could you have for implementing some curriculum in classrooms, supporting young teachers. I know I used to say to teachers, make sure that you treat the children as you would like to be treated from 9 till 3 because once they leave at 3, you don't know what kind of world they go into.

Siobhan:

It's a good philosophy.

Shannon:

Yeah, we've talked about it before. Siobhan's mentioned actually the invisible backpack.

Siobhan:

Yes.

Shannon:

Yeah, and how you just don't know what they're carrying when they come to schools. Yeah, it's not written all over their faces sometimes. So, those interpersonal skills, that's when they kick in, and you knowing your students, I suppose, and knowing what's going on in their world and taking the time to build those relationships.

Kerryanne:

That's important. No one's got any time. No one ever had any time but once you do find the time to talk to a child, find out what their interests are, just to sit down and have that conversation. That child will give it back to you tenfold.

Shannon:

Yeah, absolutely. So, tell us Kerry, almost 50 years, all up, what kept you coming back?

Kerryanne:

The love of the job and the love of ongoing learning myself. There was never a dull day. Every day presented its own challenges. Every day presented another opportunity. I woke up every morning and got out of bed happy to go to school if that makes sense.

Shannon:

No, I love it. Siobhan and I often have conversations together about it's the ‘every day is different’ that keeps you coming back. And it's like every group of kids, every student, every context that you work in, I love the opportunity to just try something different, and yeah, we're quite fortunate across the department that we have that opportunity once you’re

Kerryanne:

Absolutely.

Shannon:

Working for the system.

Kerryanne:

And there was a personal reason too, at one of the schools that I was at, my husband died of cancer, and that community gathered around me like no other. And if you're in a school, that's what you get, you get another family. You get that level of support whether it's only from one other teacher in your grade to all of the school and all of the parent community, it's still a family, and that kept me coming back. I wasn't going to come back and the community just said, 'Please come back.'

Siobhan:

They wrapped their arms around you.

Kerryanne:

'We'll look after you.' And I went back and I kept going.

Shannon:

After years of you looking after all of them.

Kerryanne:

Yeah,

Shannon:

I think that speaks volumes about who you are as a person and what you've given to the community.

Kerryanne:

And the other thing I think, my granddaughter used to say to me, 'You've got so many friends, Nanna.' The reason why I've got.

Shannon:

Nanna, she can't get you on the phone. You're too busy socialising.

Kerryanne:

The reason why I've got so many friends is that's what education does. You stick with people that have got similar philosophies with you through life. I’ve still got friends from my first school right through to principals that I was the director for. So, you pick up people along the way and you stay with them, and I don't think any other career offers that kind of opportunity or that belonging. I think it's just quite unique to education, and it's something that I absolutely value.

Siobhan:

Definitely. So, how do you hope that your students and school communities remember you?

Kerryanne:

Look, I hope they remember me as being approachable, a lover of learning, and someone who provided a lot of opportunities for anybody who put their hand up basically. I know that my staff would probably, ex-staff would say, 'She kept us so busy,' because if anything came up I'd say, 'Someone interested in?'

Shannon:

‘Who wants it?’

Kerryanne:

Or 'I'll go with you.' I ended up in the holidays in Canberra at the Academy of Science because there was a great program that was offered. But I think that's probably what they would say, I kept them busy, I challenged them. And as far as the parent community, I would think that they would say, 'I cared for kids.' Full stop.

Shannon:

Yeah, it's a very important part of the job.

Kerryanne:

Yeah, it is.

Shannon:

So, I know I've asked you, what kept you coming back all those years back into education, back into classrooms across NSW, but why public education as a system? Because we go through university and we do have a choice once we start to finish our degree of what system we want to go into, and you chose public education all the way.

Kerryanne:

What you could do as a teacher in public education for those communities and those kids was so satisfying. I think public education just gave so many opportunities.

Shannon:

Siobhan and I are similar, I suppose.

Siobhan:

Yeah, I'm proudly a product of the public education system and have not worked anywhere else but in public schools and I just think, yeah, it's the fabric of the community and what you can give back to the community in that respect. And it's just like I'm a firm believer that it doesn't matter where you come from. You should have access to great quality education and great quality teachers. So, we all do the same degree, a teacher, no matter what system you go into, we all study the same thing. But yeah, I just think that the opportunities that public education affords a lot of students is just where my values are held, I suppose.

Shannon:

Yeah, absolutely. And it doesn't matter your socio-economic background, what faith you practice, what culture you come from. None of that matters. Like we are all in that classroom together and we all have equal and equitable opportunity, and that's what I really align with across the whole system.

Siobhan:

Yeah, public schools really are just a true reflection of Australian society.

Kerryanne:

However, we must also say one of the things why I stayed was the pride in the teaching staff. And I am so proud of teachers in schools and how they connect with those kids and how they just give so much to those communities. I've seen so many outstanding teachers and what they do for kids in our system, in the public education system.

Shannon:

Is there someone that comes to mind that you've had the privilege of mentoring over the years that's gone on to do something that you're like, 'My protégé'?

Kerryanne:

My protégé?

Siobhan:

Kerryanne’s probably got many of those.

Kerryanne:

There's a lot. Kathy was one of my principals when I was a director. Matt, who's at an inner-west school in Sydney, who does a marvellous job with a very multicultural community, and it gives those children so many opportunities. So yeah, I could name quite a few, but I think those 2 are standouts.

Siobhan:

Throughout your time in education, you would've seen a lot of change. I'm interested to hear, what are you looking forward to seeing in the future of education?

Kerryanne:

Look, I think that we have someone who is taking us back to the focus on teaching and learning. And I think if we can maintain that focus and do it in a systemic way, I think that's going to be the secret of success. The only thing that I would say is that I applaud Teach NSW for actually making sure that we provide all of the opportunities for people to talk about teaching and education so that young people out there know that it's not just a job. It's a career with the most wonderful sense of satisfaction and achievement.

Shannon:

Thank you. Well, we're so glad that you joined us today to have said conversations on the couch. Like I mentioned earlier, it's nice to have someone with so much experience, and such a broad range of experiences across the system and to share that with us. We really appreciate it.

Kerryanne:

Well, I've enjoyed it. Thank you both very much.

Siobhan:

You're so welcome. If you know someone who would benefit from listening to this episode, please share it with them. We're always looking to impact a wider audience. So like, comment, and subscribe if you've enjoyed the episode, and we'll see you next time. Bye.

Shannon:

Bye.

Shannon:

Thank you for tuning in to the Teach NSW Podcast where we explore the dynamic world of education. Don't forget to follow, like, and subscribe to be notified when new episodes become available. You can find us on social media via our handle @TeachNSW. Until next time, keep learning, keep teaching, and keep making a difference. This podcast is produced by the Teach NSW team from the NSW Department of Education.

[End transcript]

*Correction: Author of ‘The Women’ is Kristin Hannah