Siobhan:

I'd like to acknowledge that this episode of the Teach NSW Podcast was recorded on the homelands of the Darug people. I'd like to pay respect to Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today.

Opening Credits:

Welcome to the Teach NSW Podcast, a podcast by teachers, for teachers. I'm Shannon and, I'm Siobhan.

Siobhan:

Today we're really excited to have Matt on the couch, who is a NSW public school principal on the traditional lands of the Wangal and Wategoro people. Welcome Matt to the couch.

Matt:

Thank you so much.

Siobhan:

Matt has been with the department for 34 years and joins us today to discuss, amongst other things, building a collaborative school culture. So, welcome.

Matt:

Thanks again.

Shannon:

We love to start off the show by doing a little bit of a This or That, kind of a teacher edition. So the first one up, we've got, do you prefer morning or after school duty?

Matt:

Morning duty.

Shannon:

Okay. Specific reason, are you more of a morning person?

Matt:

Definitely more of a morning person.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

Yeah, but by the end of the day, it's a lot of effort goes into being a teacher or a principal, and I'm pretty tired.

Shannon:

Yeah. Absolutely deserving of that break. What about you Siobhan?

Siobhan:

Um, I would say afternoon because it's quick, like, it's done. For me in high school, the bus duty was over in like 10 minutes.

Shannon:

I was going to say, we know you're a bus duty fan.

Siobhan:

Yeah, love bus duty. Over in 10 minutes. I'm out of there. Wipe my hands, high-vis vest off.

Shannon:

She quite likes the whistle as well.

Siobhan:

I do like the whistle, yes.

Shannon:

The power. Power of the whistle. All right, the next one up we have, would you rather, or This or That, lead the professional learning for your whole staff or lead the whole school assembly?

Matt:

I like leading the whole school assembly because you're talking to kids.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

And in that way, I like to have an effect with kids and talk to parents at the same time, because some of them aren't the best when it comes to parking outside the school so they need constant reminders. But, yeah, no, I like leading the whole school assembly.

Shannon:

Yeah, nice. Do you have a microphone at your whole school assembly?

Matt:

Yes.

Shannon:

Yeah, that was my, I think it was the microphone that really drew me up there.

Matt:

Was it?

Shannon:

Yeah, I really liked having the mic and having my SingStar moment.

Matt:

With 800 kids, you need

Shannon:

Absolutely.

Matt:

A microphone.

Siobhan:

I think, from my perspective and like, observing principals in the different schools that I've worked at, I think it really sets the tone when the principal is the one to address the assembly quite frequently. I think that, like sharing their vision and values for the week or for the term or whatever it may be, constant reminders of, you know, what positive behaviour looks like and what's coming up in the school, celebrating success within the school. I'll never forget when I started at my substantive role in the first assembly, I was welcomed in the school assembly. It's a bit like, ‘Oh, don't look at me.’ But, you know, they said, 'There's our new English teacher over there.' Give a wave in front of the 800 students, but I just think it does make a difference because everyone's on the same page. So, I really appreciate the value of principals speaking at whole school assemblies. What about you Shannon?

Shannon:

Yeah, no, the same thing happened to me, actually, now that you have reminded me, brought me back. Yeah when I got my position at the primary school that I was working at, my principal brought us all up. It was a couple of us, beginning teachers all there at the same year, and lined us up one by one and introduced us to the school community. So yeah, it was quite daunting at the beginning, but, no, it is really nice. I think it builds that connection with your community as well, having, you know, being visible within the school, definitely.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Shannon:

All right, our final one for this segment, I've got, athletics carnival or swimming carnival?

Matt:

Oh, both. Sporty background so I love them both and take active roles within them. You know, I didn't run in the teacher 100 metre race this year, so.

Shannon:

Missed out.

Matt:

I was scared of doing an injury. I had a cricket carnival coming up, so I thought,

Shannon:

Priorities.

Siobhan:

Playing it safe.

Matt:

‘Be sensible, Matt.’

Siobhan:

Yeah. We don't need a pulled hammy before the cricket carnival, that's for sure.

Matt:

No, not an old man like me.

Shannon:

What about you?

Siobhan:

I've never run in a race or swum in a race.

Shannon:

Haven't you?

Siobhan:

No, because I just, I can't put my ego aside.

Shannon:

You might have to get up and do one right now.

Siobhan:

I know. Well, I don't know if anyone's ever asked me, maybe they've looked at me and said, 'No, she'd be no good on the relay team.' I don't know. But always happy to take, you know, like, the inspirational motivator role. ‘Let's go, teachers. You’re going to beat these students in the race. Come on, start stretching.’

Shannon:

I love the camaraderie that happens when, you know especially, we had, like all the teachers had their house colours as well. So, we were all divided up into the different houses at my school, and I was in the red house, so, I was very proud to run in the red race, which was exciting. So yeah, I'm an athletics carnival kind of teacher as well.

Siobhan:

In my primary school, from my own schooling experience, I'll never forget in the afternoon, like close to an athletics carnival or any sports carnival, we'd go out into the playground, split into our house groups and we'd practise that chant.

Shannon:

You’d practise your chant.

SIobhan:

We'd practise our march. I was a sports house captain in Year 6, so I was making sure my team were marching, you know, all arms in line and really keep them in line. So, that's actually a really fond memory that I have and I hope it's still kicking about.

Shannon:

Oh, absolutely.

Matt:

Certainly does. Everyone takes a big pride in their house. It's a great, they're all great carnivals, cross country included. We do that K - 6 as well, so, you know, we have a lot of fun.

Shannon:

Do you do your cross country on-site or do you go off-site for it?

Matt:

No, we're lucky that we've got a park nearby and it's a massive park. So yeah, it's a great little area to run in. Probably could do with a few more hills and dales.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Matt:

But, no, we're fortunate where we are.

Shannon:

You reminded me actually, speaking of cross country, there was a year, there was very high stakes with the neck and neck with position one and position 2 in the race. And the boy who was coming first at the time, his shoe came off, and the boy who was coming second, he stopped, picked up his shoe. Like, he could have just run in front of him. He stopped, picked up his shoe, ran up and gave it to him, and he said, 'Here you go, mate. Put your shoe on and then we'll go together.' And, like, just waited for him to get it on and off they went again. I honestly always get goosebumps thinking of that. And then that boy, he was in my class, so proud of him, and he got the citizenship award at the end of the year. It’s moments like that that you're just like, oh my God.

Siobhan:

Proud of you.

Shannon:

Yeah, so proud.

Matt:

Values of public education at work.

Shannon:

Absolutely, yeah. Hope he's doing well now, that student of mine.

Siobhan:

Well, let's jump in Matt and talk a little bit about you, because like I mentioned in the introduction, you've been with the NSW Department of Education for 34 years. So, an incredible tenure. And you've worked across 7 different school contexts?

Matt:

That's right.

Siobhan:

Correct me if I'm not wrong. I'm interested to hear how those diverse school contexts or experiences that you've had have shaped your approach to your leadership.

Matt:

Wow. So, yeah, look, 34 years, I suppose it's almost a bit like 'Survivor' isn't it? Outlast, maybe not outwit.

Siobhan:

Outwit, outplay.

Matt:

Um, I don't know. I've never been one to say that I mentally up for any challenge, but varying different schools. Started out at Western Sydney, south-west of Sydney, out the back of Liverpool, very disadvantaged area. By the end of the 5 years I was there, I didn't want to leave because by that stage you had developed the trust with the community and the children and as such, they really trusted you, they wanted to do things for you. And so, it was a remarkable turnaround in just 5 years. And then I set about going on the promotion way and got an executive teacher position, which doesn't exist anymore. You just go straight into assistant principal. But years and years ago, back in the stone age, they had the executive teacher position and that was at a very different school, a very affluent area. Lovely kids, great school and was led by a principal who remains my mentor today. And she was fantastic. Came in to team teach with you. You sensed that not only was she a leader, but she was a true classroom teacher at heart, and made me passionate about the art of teaching. And she was actually, you know, I got that promotion and I didn't want to leave that school. It was just wonderful. Side note, my current deputy principal was in my Year 6 class.

Shannon:

Oh my goodness.

Matt:

Again, outlast, right?

Shannon:

Wow.

Matt:

But she gave me a 5-year plan in which to become a principal. So, then I moved on to another south-western Sydney school around the Fairfield area at that time. And again, very different context. Soccer loving, you know, and very sporting type of school and a larger school than the first 2, and led a very diverse team there on Stage 3. Another little side note, I went looking for a car one day and one of the children in my Year 6 class is a used car dealer.

Siobhan:

Not when he was in Year 6 though.

Matt:

No, not in Year 6.

Shannon:

Wow. Entrepreneurial.

Siobhan:

Yeah, you're growing entrepreneurs over there.

Matt:

That's right, that's right. Went from there, 2 years there, 2 years at a school in the Bankstown area, another bigger school. Lasted 2 years there and decided that it was time to be a principal and went out to a school, western Sydney, Dundas area, and it was fantastic. Spent 6 years there and now 13 years at my current school and it's an 800-strong school. Everything's operating the way I envisaged it would. So, you know, it's sort of looking for challenges now and making sure that we can get everything out of the children as possible.

Shannon:

You must have had such a supportive range of mentors throughout your time, you know, through varied roles and going for promotions and things like that. Is there someone that stands out to you?

Matt:

Well, Kerry's the one that is my mentor to this day. And, you know, I still ring her or talk to her on messaging or whatever, because I still need advice. 34 years doesn't guarantee that you know everything.

Shannon:

Lifelong learner as we like to say to our students.

Matt:

Exactly, exactly. And, you know, she's always got a really good way of pointing it to what is most important at that particular time or that bit of advice that I need. So, you know, and I owe a lot to her because I think I came out of my first school as the disciplinarian, you know what I mean, and making sure that everything was right. But to re-discover my craft and have a real passion for that and now to take it, you know, further into my principal career now and making sure that kids are getting exactly what they need so that they have all the skills to move into adulthood, that's been really exciting and something I've never forgotten. One of my other mentors in my first school, believe it or not, I play veterans cricket with his son, Simon, and, you know, he's still around. And so, I get to talk to him as well at those cricket carnivals. And I, you know, he was a well-loved man and probably taught me more about visibility than anything else and being that person that's in contact with kids. And he would greet them of a morning and sometimes of an afternoon, and that's something that's part of my practice and whatnot. But he was just a really easy person to get along with and still is to this day. Yeah so, lots of mentors, but those 2 stick out more than anything else.

Siobhan:

To me it sounds like you because you've been in so many different school contexts and gaining that valuable experience, and now you sort of say, you know, you've got your school the way you like it. It's running well. You're looking for challenges. What would you say maybe are your top 3 non-negotiables that you've sort of brought into your school as part of your vision?

Matt:

Well, I think number one is children choosing their learning experience. I think what I've learned over the years is rather than be the sage on the stage, or, you know, chalk-and-talk type of thing, there may be viewers who don't know what chalk means.

Siobhan:

We're aware.

Shannon:

I hope you're not pointing to us.

Siobhan:

We're aware, just want to clear that up.

Matt:

But we've done a lot of work and action research on project-based learning and children choosing their own roles and choosing how they want to attack a question of inquiry, which could be a real world problem, has been eye-opening for us at my current school and it's led to fantastic outcomes. My favourite thing to talk about, or 2 favourite things concerning project-based learning, one of them was a Stage 2, building a billy cart.

Shannon:

Ohhh.

Matt:

Now, you know, I don't know if children really understand what billy carts meant to someone of my age and my era. But I did have a billy cart and the amount of times I actually came off that billy cart because I didn't operate the brakes properly or had rope to steer it and going down a steep hill. But it was fun. I used to do it. And so, this project was about building the billy carts and then they had to devise a test to see who would be the best driver, who would be the best pusher, sort, you know, people outside the school to actually source products to build the billy cart with. And we had this great array of billy carts all around the school and they tested them out, and, you know, we had winners and all that. But I had tears in my eyes because I saw what it meant to the children but it also made me reflect on my childhood, you know what I mean? And I think we gave them an understanding about something that happened, used to happen in the 50s, 60s, 70s type of thing, rather than with current day. And then my second other favourite thing to talk about with project-based learning was a thing called the Dark Sky Project. And it was about giving observatories a greater chance to explore deep space by reducing the amount of light we have here in Sydney. Now, you know, we have an observatory near the Harbour Bridge we can't use for deep space exploration. So, Siding Springs is probably the next best one. But, the Sydney glow is that much that it's even starting to have an effect up there and we're talking hundreds of kilometres away. So, we had that question of inquiry, how could we reduce light in Sydney to make sure that we could still continue the work at Siding Spring Observatory? Two groups, so this is a statewide competition, right? There's not only primary schools involved, there's high schools involved and whatnot. And 2 groups at our school, out of the 16 groups that were doing it, one group decided that they would do a local council policy that was adopted by Cumberland Council. Only the third council in NSW to adopt such a policy. They wrote the whole thing. 12 year old children having a direct effect on, you know, adult lives. You know, the other 2 local councils were the 2 ones that surrounded Siding Springs Observatory. So, that was just amazing. They won the competition, even beat high schools and the ones, the other one, and they finished third in the competition, didn't want to attack Vivid Light Festival, but designed an education board about how people could reduce light in their own homes, you know, and have that storyboard at Vivid Festival that didn't actually eventuate, which would have been cool if it did, but, you know, it was just a wonderful idea. And so, our kids developed these projects. They worked really, really hard on them and saw the benefits of it, and, you know, high school children involved, they beat them as well. And I can remember talking to the children about, you know, their feelings and their hard work, and how proud they were of themselves. We actually then took them up to Siding Spring Observatory so that they could see what they were talking about and what they were trying to save, and just, they're remarkable things that, you know, you come across in your career. But no doubt things that children remember for the rest of their lives, you know, and I think that's sort of the second part, is we're creating memories.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

I remember my primary school time fantastically well and it was a very, very happy time. And so, I talk to my teachers about creating those happy memories for children because I don't know that a lot of people will have many happier times in lives than what they do in their primary school years. So, we have an emphasis on making sure we're learning everything we need to learn, but creating that bit of fun and that creativity within what we do to make sure it's a life-long memory for them. So, I think, did you say 3? Because I think I've got through 2.

Siobhan:

What I'm getting from you is visibility, student-centred learning, project-based learning and making memories. To me, I think those are so important and I think, yeah, are the core of what a great school can look like.

Shannon:

Yeah, and something I really align with as well, like with my own pedagogy. I think my class as well participated in the Dark Sky Project. Yeah, very insightful, but.

Siobhan:

No hard feelings if that school beat yours.

Shannon:

We weren't the winners, but I'll let that one slide for you, Matt. But there's another experience that I hold quite fondly in my memories as a teacher, with the Western Sydney Airport. My students, I got involved, somehow came across it. I was always a bit of a, you know, looking on Staff Noticeboard for opportunities for my students. You know, I was a big believer in linking that real world connection to their learning, like that was a big part of the classroom and basically, it was in collaboration with Minecraft for education, the students created an aerotropolis for the new western Sydney site. And I wasn't someone who was very, you know, abreast of what was going on with the new airport, but let me tell you by the end of that project, I knew the ins and outs of Badgerys Creek and what was going on out there. But to see the students work together, the way that they understood what goes into construction, how you need to look for, you know, a good site. When we talk about the community members, what impact would they have? Like, it just gave them such a versatile overview of, you know, what goes into a project, I suppose, and thinking about council restrictions and things like that. Like these were Year 5 and 6 as well. And just the pride that I had in the things that they were learning and coming up with and the decisions they were making and the understanding they had. And the development of that whole design thinking from ideation to, you know, execution was just phenomenal. And I believe we all have wonderful lessons, but those project-based-led assignments that I've done with my classes are the things that I hold highest in my memory and just have so much regard for because you go on this journey with your class and you have outcomes that you could never have even predicted, and the realisations that they have not only for themselves but for you as a teacher is really, really special.

Matt:

Yeah, and the reflection you have on that as well is really, really important for your own teaching, you know, and you've learnt things, you know, not only about how you've handled that whole situation, but even learnt facts from your kids.

Shannon:

Oh my goodness, yes.

Matt:

And it's great to share with the students that I learnt this from you.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

And it makes them feel good. I suppose, in a way, you know, it makes me think of how underestimated our primary school children are, particularly when they go into high school. And I really wish at times that they could start in high school where they left off from primary school, but it's all good. They learn a lot of different things in high school as well. But, yeah, our kids can be phenomenal at times, can't they?

Shannon:

I love to tell them, 'All of you little people, you're the future leaders of the world. It's pretty special. You can do some wonderful things.'

Siobhan:

‘So don't make me look bad.’

Shannon:

Yeah. ‘So, next time we'll win.’ No, I'm only joking.

Matt:

They've got to make decisions for old people, and like, you know, when they're adults, I'm going to be old and nursing homes, all that.

Shannon:

Remember me. Remember where you came from.

Siobhan:

Correct me if I'm wrong, Matt, but I remember in our pre-sort of conversation, was it your own primary school teacher that influenced your journey into the career?

Matt:

It certainly was.

Shannon:

Year 6 teacher?

Matt:

Year 6 teacher. She was a first year out teacher and I don't think I really appreciated that as a Year 6 student.

Siobhan:

Probably wouldn't have even recognised, right?

Matt:

No, but she recognised me as an individual, number one. And there were aspects about her teaching that sort of cared about my background as well, you know, single-parent family. And, you know, we weren't well off at all, but she took an active interest in me. She brought out the best in me through competition.

Siobhan:

She knew you well.

Matt:

Yeah, she knew me well. And like, you know, we'd be doing these homework contracts and we'd get them on the Monday. I'd have it finished on Monday night. You know, coloured in even, like a boy in Year 6, colouring, shading, all these sorts of things. All in the hope of getting above 100%. That's not possible, right? But she would give marks beyond 100%. You get 105. Oh my, that made my year, you know, and I would have walked across hot coals for her, honestly. But, yeah.

Shannon:

Says a lot about her relationship building, doesn't it, as a first year teacher?

Matt:

Yeah, yeah. And I suppose, you know, we don't all have a really good, I don't know, persona as a teacher in our first year out, but she must have been a born teacher because she brought that out in all of us. It was impactful. My whole primary school career, I can remember every single teacher and I can remember the sorts of impacts that they made on me. And I suppose that's part of the reflection, we talked about reflection with, you know, what we do with students right now. But I reflect on how I am as a teacher and little bits, I think, that each teacher I had in primary school and some of my high school teachers brought out in me and brought to my DNA as a teacher, too.

Shannon:

Do you find now as a principal, like you speak so fondly of your own mentors and your Year 6 teacher. Do you hope to sort of have that impact with the next generation of teachers coming through, beginning teachers, early career teachers? How do you as a principal sort of support them through the early years in their career?

Matt:

Look, I'm only coming to realise that that is now my role. Yeah, confidence building is a big part of doing it. I think, when I started my career, I wasn't very confident at all. And here I am 34 years later, I’m talking in front of people and on podcasts like this. But it takes a long time to do those sorts of things, you know, and a long time to be comfortable in your skin, to grow into your skin, to know what type of educator you're going to be.

Shannon:

Yeah, and I really resonate with that, because I did a Masters of Teaching after my bachelor's degree. And, you know, being quite honest, I really wasn't too sure 100% what I wanted to do. And, you know, like many others, I'm sure out there, there are some people who are just born knowing what they want to do and others who need to find their way in life. But the best thing I ever did, because I only had 2 stints of professional experience, I took up an SLSO job, so a student learning and support officer job. And that for me, being able to be in classrooms and I have spoken about it on previous episodes of this podcast, to build my confidence and to sort of have the ability to observe different teachers in their practice really helped boost me up, I think. And then when I was, you know, moving towards graduating and out there, casual teaching, there were so many things that I just picked up and was able to add to my teacher toolkit that I don't think I would have had unless I took that role. So, we have spoken before, you know, on here about, go and reach out to your local public school if you are studying education, a bachelor or a master's, and see if there is work for you as a student learning and support officer, because it's a wonderful role within a school.

Matt:

Absolutely. And I've got a couple of third year out teachers at the moment. I've given them one day a week because they're still doing their fourth year. All 3 teachers are ex-students

Shannon:

Oh, wow.

Matt:

Of the current school I'm in, so they already know the culture and the atmosphere that exists within the school. They've worked as SLSOs. Now they're working one day a week. And once they've finished their fourth year, I'm planning on bringing them in as temporary teachers. It's really exciting to me to see that full circle happen sort of thing. And, you know, if I'm real, those 3 students at the school, they were born teachers and I'm glad they chose the profession. And, you know, and I suppose that leads me into the next point is that teaching is an honourable profession and what we do is really, really important. They need, our teachers need to respect that, but they also need to enjoy that. The responsibility is huge. Six hours a day, we’ve got to keep these kids safe. But, you know, we can do that in a very, very interesting and at times humorous or really engaging way. So, you know, they've got to really respect what they do and hold themselves up in high esteem because teachers create lawyers, doctors, all the important people in society.

Shannon:

Yeah, we're creating the tomorrow, I like to say.

Matt:

Exactly.

Shannon:

Absolutely. Speaking of, you know, having that, I love that whole like life cycle, bringing back ex-students. It sounds like you have a really, you've fostered quite a collaborative environment in your school. Is there, you know, some tips or tricks or strategies you've used along the way to foster that within a school as a principal?

Matt:

I think, you know, we talked about visibility and visibility for students and for parents, right? You've got to be visible for your staff and you've got to be available for them, right? So, you know, like I spent the majority of the last week of school in Term 2 going into classrooms marking writing or giving stickers out to kids or listening to them read, those sorts of things. And teachers appreciate the fact that you come in there. I get a look at what teachers are doing in there, but I don't, you know, commit things to memory or go and write down in my diary what exactly happened. But, you know, there's also times where teachers are going through a bit of a hard time. Like a parent may have said something off to them in a parent teacher interview or they just might be going through some hard life stuff. And I've got to be on the ball with that and know what's going on and approach it in a sensitive enough way that they know that they've got support, that I'm right behind them, that I back them up 100%, that I think they're an amazing teacher, you know, and build the confidence in that way. And I suppose as well I've got to differentiate my style because not everyone's the same. So, you know, I've got to make sure that what might work for one teacher as far as building their confidence and skills is not going to work for every other. So, you know, I've got a little database in which I know how to attack the different teachers within our school. Obviously it doesn't work when they've just come. I've got to get to know them, but I spend the time to do that and getting to know their stories outside of school as well. I think that's a really important thing. And I suppose not just important for teachers, but for students, their parents, our whole school community. The more stories you know and that you digest and react to in a positive way.

Shannon:

That connection building, yeah.

Matt:

It's absolutely about connection building.

Shannon:

Yeah. So, if you were sort of, what I'm taking from this, if you were going back to potentially early career teachers who may be thinking, 'I would like to embark upon a leadership journey at some stage of my career,' what advice would you have for them?

Matt:

Well, get your backyard in order, you know, and make sure that you know exactly what our syllabus is all about at all levels, right. So, because it's really handy as a teacher to know where the kids are coming from, but where they need to go, you know what I mean? And I encourage my teachers to look at the secondary curriculum as well, because, you know, we've got some kids that are out of the blocks as far as their learning is concerned. As far as our children are concerned, we've got to be making sure that everything that they are doing has a purpose within the classroom. And when you understand that purpose as a teacher, then you understand what needs to happen across classes of a stage to become that leader, to make sure that you can adequately support the teachers in their quest for getting the necessary knowledge and outcomes and indicators on board for those children. And often it's not about teachers actually putting their hand up and saying, 'I'm ready for leadership.'

Shannon:

Because we can have, like I say we, speaking on behalf of everyone, but I might know myself that imposter syndrome is something that's really prevalent within myself, my colleagues, the profession in general. And sometimes, like having leaders in your corner who, like you said, get to know you, know your story, kind of know what makes you tick in a sense. Like, yes, I can lead an extracurricular, I can lead a key learning area, for example. But understanding those interpersonal skills and sometimes you just need a little nudge from someone in a leadership role to show you that, like, ‘Hey, I back you. I know that you have these skills. You can do this.’

Matt:

Yeah, exactly, exactly. And I suppose, you know, that confidence building in teachers is really, really important, I suppose. As new teachers come into the profession, they hold back a little, you know what I mean? So, my job these days is to make sure that they bring themselves out to the fore. They're in front of people, not just kids, but in front of a lot of people, even delivering PL to staff and whatnot. Just to have those opportunities to speak and to be confident and to be proud, proud of their profession.

Siobhan:

I'm going to ask you a pretty big question now which is, what sort of legacy do you hope to leave within your school or within education as a whole?

Matt:

Wow.

Siobhan:

I said big question.

Matt:

Look, you know, I'd like to think that my whole school community sees that I work hard and the reason I work hard is because I really believe in bringing children along to be everything that they want to be, that, you know, they all hold dreams and those dreams need to be realised. You know, I know that parents have dreams for their children but it's the children that need to make sure that they follow their goals, type of thing. I had certain dreams for my 3 children and it didn't work out that way and they followed their own dreams and I'm immensely proud of them.

Siobhan:

What you're an advocate for at the end of the day, right?

Matt:

Exactly. Because, you know, they had their own self-advocacy to say, 'This is what I want to do and this is my choice,’ and all I had to do was listen and support. So, through hard work, I hope the children go, 'Yep, I have the confidence to make those decisions for my life and make them good decisions,' type of thing. I think to lead with heart is really, really important. I think that my school community sees that I care and so it's really important that the children learn this at primary school and hopefully continue that through high school into adulthood, and they become caring individuals within the societies that they hopefully manage or lead. You know, they're the dreams I hold for the children at my school, you know, and I think, fun. I think, and I've been very vocal about this in a number of different forums, that fun leads to people relaxing in their role, believing in themselves as well. And if they have enough fun and develop that confidence, that leads to execution and if we execute our skills in the right way in front of our children, in front of our parents, in front of our whole school community, even our staff with PL or whatever it is, then, you know, it leads to a relentless approach to what we do. And hopefully, some of my staff members, some of the students in whatever work they choose or whatever it is, get to experience a job that they don't seriously call work. And I feel like I get up in the morning, I do what I need to do, I have breakfast and I go along to a place I really enjoy that I don't call work, you know, and I've been fortunate enough to do that for 34 years.

Shannon:

Yeah. Wow. It sounds like a big part of your philosophy is empowering others, from this conversation this is kind of what I've taken. Like, you're really big on empowering the students to have their sort of student-centred learning, empowering your staff to take the leap. How do you sort of build that capacity within your school, from pre-service teachers to current teachers, then all the way through to the executive staff to have, or executive team, I should say, to have that sort of collaborative approach as a unit, as a team?

Matt:

I think, you know, we have a lot of times within our school week where we are collaborative as a stage with our assistant principal, curriculum and instruction. We call a session with them, CHIPS, right?

Siobhan:

Is that an acronym?

Matt:

Curriculum hour of planning sessions.

Shannon:

I love that, CHIPS!

Matt:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Actually, I introduced it

Shannon:

Do you have chips at the?

Matt:

Well, and they say that I need to provide hot chips every time they have a meeting.

Shannon:

I'm feeling like you do.

Matt:

Sometimes I have. Not often, because I'm a bit of a health nut, I suppose. But I introduced it with the old 70s and 80s show 'CHiPs’, the California Highway Patrol. One of my favourite shows as a child, right.

Shannon:

Can't say I know that one.

Matt:

But you know, I think it's not only having the opportunity to be collaborative, it's about articulating what that collaboration means.

Siobhan:

Yeah, coming from a high school context, it's not often that, like, you sometimes are really refined to your staffroom or your colleagues within the staffroom. So, we had something similar at our school. I'll give you another acronym, SALT, Staff Action Learning Teams. And we would split into, you know, different elements of the School Excellence Framework and we actually got to choose which team we would like to be a part of. So, it's like giving you the opportunity to hone in on a skill or an area that you are interested in and working towards. And often, like, we are encouraged to put it within our PDPs. But for me, that gave me an excellent opportunity to talk with staff across different faculties of what strategies they're using and how I could potentially use those within my own classroom. I think it's really important to create that collaboration and in turn it results in trust at the end of the day, because they're seeing that their voice is open and active in a forum outside of their, in primary school, their stage group or their executive team. So, yeah, I really value that approach to collaboration and clearly it has a large impact.

Shannon:

And thinking to those beginning teachers, early career teachers, as well, it's almost like mixed ability grouping. Like they are getting, you know, when I think of my first year of teaching, I was on Year 1, and I didn't, you know, I didn't really know outside of Stage One, because I was at a very, very large school and having that opportunity to be able to talk to others across different stages, like, you just learn so much. You almost, you are the student, really, in your first couple years. You're like a little sponge at the beginning. So, yeah, having professional learning teams, for example, we did similar, on a Monday, we'd sort of rotate through the groups, et cetera, and it was so beneficial just to talk to others and you pick up things that you wouldn't necessarily gather. So, it's cool.

Matt:

But, like, you choose your mentors, right? You don't have a mentor forced upon you. So, you know, it's also great to have those collaborative, different groups across stages, within stage, whatever, because it gives people an opportunity to say, 'This is the person I resonate with most.' You know what I mean? And if that makes it an easier situation for career advancement, or, you know, just to make their teaching just that little bit better, then why not? You know what I mean? I'm just, I've got SALT in my mind. You could have introduced it with Salt Bae, or, you know what I mean?

Siobhan:

A little bit of a sprinkle of wisdom across the school, yeah.

Matt:

Whatever it is, yeah. Actually, one of the coolest things I did see was at a high school, I did a little bit of relieving as a director and they, in their action plan, they made it that English and maths was everybody's responsibility.

Shannon:

It's everyone's business, we like to say.

Matt:

Exactly, exactly. And the conversations that we're having, they were having, cross departments around how they could actually build maths into their industrial arts lessons or those sorts of things were really valuable, you know, tools, I suppose. And I was fortunate enough to be listening to these conversations and sitting within them and contributing at times. But believe it or not, that was the high school I went to as well. So, it was even like a sense of pride moment, too,

Shannon:

Yeah, another full circle moment.

Matt:

Going back into that high school and these teachers cared so much. And they were developing really good plans to make sure that English and maths results could be affected and brought along by making sure that everybody, everybody's business was those 2 areas, which is, it was fantastic to see.

Shannon:

There's just so much good going on across our NSW public school system and having people like you on the couch, you know, who've been, what, 34 years, a range of contexts, even, you know, some time as a director.

Matt:

So old.

Shannon:

No, I'm not bringing up your age now, Matt, but, you know, you're experienced. It's really cool for, you know, to sit down and have this platform to be able to share what's going on across our system, because we're so huge. What, over 2,200 schools? There's a bit of magic happening in everyone's, in everyone's public school.

Matt:

Well, you know, I want to say thank you because you guys are shining light on, you know, some pretty important people within the education sphere and having great conversations around what is important in education and highlighting public education as a really, really, I suppose, important facet of society.

Siobhan:

World-class system.

Matt:

Bringing along great leaders of the future, as you say.

Shannon:

Thank you. We appreciate the feedback.

Siobhan:

I'm humbled. So, you referenced your vodcast earlier, 'The Principal's Office’ Is that correct?

Matt:

Yes, that's right.

Siobhan:

What inspired you to start the vodcast in the first place?

Matt:

I suppose, you know, we got to a stage at our school where there are a lot of great people who were very, very well adept at different areas within our school and had a lot of great knowledge. And I wanted to share that, but I also wanted to do something that was going to inspire pre-service teachers in particular. So, it was a platform in which they could actually have a look at a video online. Some of them were a little bit long, I've got to say, but listen to conversations, see what teachers are thinking and maybe affect their thinking about how they can actually come into a school and say, 'This is who I want to be as a teacher.' Look, they were a lot of fun. We had a lot of laughs. We finished off with, I'd just read out some lyrics to a song as well, just for a bit of fun.

Shannon:

We might have to do some ideation with you, Matt, you know?

Siobhan:

Yeah, new segment.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Matt:

Available anytime.

Shannon:

There's potential there. Collaboration.

Matt:

Talk to my manager.

Shannon:

All right. That's all we've got time for today. Thank you so much for tuning into this episode and a huge thank you again for Matt joining us on the couch. It was wonderful to talk about, you know, your vast 34 years with the Department of Education, it's a huge feat, and all you do for the future pipeline of the next generation of teachers, which is really cool to see. So, thank you.

Matt:

Thank you.

Shannon:

If you enjoyed this episode, make sure you share it with someone who would also enjoy it. And until next time, we'll see you soon.

Siobhan:

Bye!

Shannon:

Bye!

Shannon:

Thank you for tuning in to the Teach NSW Podcast where we explore the dynamic world of education. Don't forget to follow, like, and subscribe to be notified when new episodes become available. You can find us on social media via our handle @TeachNSW. Until next time, keep learning, keep teaching, and keep making a difference. This podcast is produced by the Teach NSW Team from the NSW Department of Education.

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