Teach NSW Podcast Episode 20 - now live

We speak to Tammy, a proud Biripi woman and school principal about the importance of a Yarn and the value of fostering meaningful connections within the school community.

Tune in to this week’s episode as we have a Yarn with Tammy, a proud Biripi woman and school principal in a NSW public school. In this episode we dive into Tammy’s successful teaching career with a particular focus on Aboriginal education and the value of mentorship and community.

On the couch, Tammy reminisces on her personal experiences as a student and the critical role of Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander staff representation in schools. Driven by love for her community, Tammy returned to teach at the primary school she once attended after completing her university degree. From school student and pre-service teacher to classroom teacher and school principal, Tammy recognises how the support of her community enabled her to aspire to leadership and pave a meaningful career in education.

Tammy shares with us her appreciation for the teacher mentors who helped unlock her own potential to pursue executive roles. Now she feels it’s time to give back. Don’t miss out on hearing about some of the great mentoring initiatives, such as buddy systems and games of Cluedo, that Tammy has implemented to help support wellbeing among her staff by nurturing fun and connection.

You’ll also learn about how Tammy celebrates diversity and places great emphasis on fostering a culture of belonging in her school. Her end goal? To inspire Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander students and those from various cultural backgrounds to recognise and reach their potential as she was once inspired to.

We hope you enjoy this episode and it leaves you inspired to have a Yarn.

View Episode 20, Season 1

Siobhan:

I'd like to acknowledge that this episode of the Teach NSW podcast was recorded on the homelands of the Darug people. I'd like to pay respect to Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples listening today.

Opening Credits:

Welcome to the Teach NSW podcast, a podcast by teachers for teachers. I'm Shannon, and I'm Siobhan.

Shannon:

We are back, myself and Siobhan, joining you on the coach today. And as always, we have a wonderful guest. Today joining us, we have the lovely Tammy. Welcome.

Tammy:

Oh, thank you. I'm so excited to be here.

Shannon:

Thank you for joining us. So, Tammy is a proud Biripi woman, who has grown up with her family on Dharawal land in NSW. Tammy has established a successful career in education, and ensures that Aboriginal education is at the forefront for both schools and communities in which she has worked and lived. She's a mother, a principal, and a community member who relishes in watching those she works with rise up and achieve. And we're just so excited to have her in today. She's very inspirational. So, welcome.

Tammy:

Oh, thank you. I'm so excited to be here. I fangirled on you.

Siobhan:

Likewise.

Tammy:

I told you that when I go on my morning walk, I'm listening to your pod, so.

Siobhan:

We love it.

Tammy:

Excited to meet you.

Shannon:

Long time listener, first time guest.

Siobhan:

She's a friend of the show. You're added to our list of friends of the show.

Shannon:

We love that.

Siobhan:

So welcome. Well Tammy, we'd like, you know, warm up our guests, and welcome them to the couch with a bit of a 'This or That' segment. So, I'm going to give you 2 choices, and you tell me which one you prefer. So, the first one is the ‘Nut Bush' or the ‘Macarena' at the school discos?

Tammy:

Oh, 'Nut Bush.' Tina Turner all day.

Shannon:

Love it.

Siobhan:

I love it, I love it. We have answered these in the podcast before, but I'm 'Macarena' all the way. Less moves for me to remember.

Tammy:

The kids do it well.

Shannon:

Oh yeah.

Tammy:

I pride myself on the ‘Nut Bush.' Maybe I'm a bit older. 'Macarena' wasn't my thing.

Shannon:

Yeah nice.

Siobhan:

It's like a rite of passage.

Tammy:

Yeah.

Siobhan:

You just need to learn the ‘Nut Bush,' or the ‘Macarena.'

Shannon:

Yeah and I've mentioned this before, but like we’ve talked about, I like didn't grow up for the most part in Australia, I grew up in Ireland. So, I feel like I have this, like snippets of my like Australian knowledge that I've like missed. 'Nut Bush' being one of those.

Tammy:

Ah, yes.

Shannon:

So, it's a real sort of like, it's just like a novelty when I get to do it. Because I'm like, I'm living my best life for the first time.

Tammy:

And as a primary teacher, it rolls out every disco.

Shannon:

Oh, isn't that the truth.

Tammy:

Yeah, you get lots of practice. I find myself like now as I'm getting a little bit older, when I get to the end of it, my kicks are just like a little, a little nudge.

Shannon:

Less invigorating.

Tammy:

Full, yeah. Full, big kick.

Siobhan:

That's what I'm saying. 'Nut Bush,' it's all like turn around, touch the ground, like there's a lot of effort.

Shannon:

What do you mean, 'Turn around, touch the ground?'

Tammy:

That's what she's doing wrong.

Siobhan:

I'm obviously doing the wrong 'Nut Bush.' No, it's like you’ve got to 'Nut Bush' from all different angles, don't you? Like you got a front, side.

Tammy:

Yeah.

Shannon:

So, I'm just going to say, when we do the outro today for this episode, I think we cue the music.

Siobhan:

Agree.

Shannon:

We see.

Siobhan:

Tammy can lead us because, yeah.

Shannon:

Yes.

Siobhan:

All right, moving on. Next one. NRL or AFL?

Tammy:

NRL.

Siobhan:

NRL, yeah.

Tammy:

There's no other acronym for sport in my house. It's only NRL.

Shannon:

I was about to say, I'm glad you ended that with 'in your house’. Because I'm an AFL girl over here, go the Swans.

Siobhan:

And I'm an NRL girlie.

Shannon:

I'm sandwiched in the middle.

Siobhan:

Yep, that's right. 2 out of one. 2 out of 3. You lose. Athletics carnival or swimming carnival?

Tammy:

Oh, tough question.

Siobhan:

You can say both, I know you want to.

Tammy:

Athletics I think because you get more community around. So, the pool brings a few community out, but because you're offsite, and yeah. And it's also when you're the leader of the school, I'm on hyper-alert. You know, where everyone is all the time. So, athletics I feel like you're a little bit relaxed, and the kids are chanting, and

Shannon:

Yeah.

Tammy:

Good vibe.

Shannon:

Do you do your athletics carnival onsite at school?

Tammy:

Yeah, we usually do. And this year we decided to up the ante, the year of the Olympics, and go to an athletics track. So, we'll see how we go.

Shannon:

Very fun.

Tammy:

I'm planning on better, we'll get better results because we'll run faster, I'm sure.

Shannon:

Oh yeah nice, one year I was on the long jump. And let me tell you, my arms. They got a

Siobhan:

With the rake.

Shannon:

Sincere workout that day. I was, I was looking strong by the end of it.

Tammy:

The worst thing is as a teacher when you've got to demo.

Siobhan:

Oh, yeah.

Tammy:

I'm not good demoing anything at athletics. Particularly, high jump.

Siobhan:

High jump, there's no way. You won't get over that pole, no way.

Shannon:

I think my actually, my fondest role that I had, I was head judge at the end of the, the end of the races. So. The power went to my head, I'm not going to lie. Look, I'm a very self-aware person, I like to say and the power went to my head as the head judge.

Tammy:

When you're giving out the paddle pop sticks.

Shannon:

Oh, absolutely. Red, blue and yellow, let me tell you.

Siobhan:

It's so funny because in schools like there's just an unspoken rule of like, this person is the announcer. And this person is the ribbon writer.

Shannon:

Coordinator, yeah.

Siobhan:

Coordinator. It's like when you're new to a school you’re kind of like, you know, allocated a job, but there are ones that someone's been doing for years.

Tammy:

And got it right.

Siobhan:

Yeah, yeah.

Shannon:

Yeah, I got stuck with the rake one year.

Tammy:

They saw you coming.

Shannon:

They did.

Siobhan:

I don't know what's better, that or Year 9 boys javelin?

Shannon:

Oh, okay, yeah.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Shannon:

It's all character building, really.

Siobhan:

Agreed.

Shannon:

All part of the fun. Well Tammy, tell us. What is your education story? What inspired you to become a teacher?

Tammy:

Oh, long story but I think watching people, you know, I was in primary school in the 80s, and it was finishing off in 1990. And it was like late 80s, they started with identified jobs in schools. So, Aboriginal people in really important roles, which were Aboriginal Education Assistants at the time, now AEOs. And I remember Aunty Mary coming into our school, and I thought she was just visiting every day. And I thought, 'Did she not have something else to do?' You know, I reflect on it now and I remember asking her, I was like, 'Aunty Mary, what do you do here?' And she was like, 'I work here.' And it was the first time I'd seen a face that I recognised from my own community working in a school. And it wasn't until years later that, that really resonated for me and probably I didn't realise how much it landed on me. And then I just had this love affair with all things that were my school and community, and in Year 10 I wanted to go back and be her. So, I went back and did my work experience, Year 10, with her. And then when I went off to uni, the first place that I wanted to prac at was at my primary school.

Shannon:

Wow.

Tammy:

Then I was appointed there as a grad teacher. I was working in a role that are defunct now, but they used to be called Aboriginal Education Resource Teachers. And so, you know, it's like any of the additional teachers that we've got in our school that are off the floor, I just got a great opportunity to like hone my craft and visit. You know when you do RFF, and you go to everyone's room, you're like 'I love that.' 'Oh, I wouldn't really do that.' I kind of got that for probably, it was 3, 4 years. And so, I felt by the time I actually hit the classroom, I'd kind of taken all the good from everybody. So, I had this really fortunate experience, I suppose, with training to be a teacher. And yeah, then I started teaching. And then was doing AP really early out in my career, which I feel very fortunate. I had great mentors. You know, people who see something in you before you do. And so, 'Oh, I think you can be a leader.' Oh I think, 'No, I can't.' 'Oh no, I think you can.' 'Oh, I don't.' And I thought leadership was me needing to solve everyone's problems. So, once I realised that it wasn't, it was having people around me that kind of had more belief in me than I had in myself. Whether I was a young teacher, or a more experienced one, and AP, then on to DP, and then principal came up in 2013. And I thought I probably have the least experience, but I know I'm super passionate. Knew how to run a school, and also knew the support that we've got around us. So, I had a go at that, and picked that up. And 11 years later, I'm still in the chair and still loving it. And you know you love it when every time you drive into the driveway, like I feel good. And I think that that's the thing that keeps me in my space. It’s the day I drive into the driveway and kind of go, 'Oh, maybe I'm up for something else.' That will be the day I'll start looking at, you know, different school communities, or different roles.

Siobhan:

And so, did you always know that you wanted to be a school principal, or was that a journey for you?

Tammy:

I was more specific, like I had a very, probably a tunnel vision. I really wanted to lead in my own community. Which is probably, maybe it's the right thought to have, or maybe it's not. But for me it was, I just wanted to, I'd been to that school and I'd seen the talent and potential. And I thought, 'Wow, I'd love to get some opportunity to be able to lead that space, and see what I can do with my knowledge and skills.' And so, being in my own school community, that was really important to me. I don't know that I really went, 'Oh, I want to be a principal anywhere.' It was a bit more specific than that. So yeah, still growing up. I’ve got a very intimate love affair with my school. But I think I’ve got that with teaching, too.

Shannon:

So, when you were going to university and decided to study teaching, did you study close to home? Or what did your sort of journey from university look like?

Tammy:

My journey to university involved me living in a caravan for 4 years

Shannon:

Wow.

Tammy:

To go to university away from home. It was the first time I'd ever been away from home. And you know, that, given my background, that was probably all that we could afford. And you know, my parents really, really made that happen for me. Which I'm so thankful for. And I think, you know, going away to uni, it teaches you a lot. Like I grew up a lot in that space. But I also knew that I wanted to go back home. Like going back home to me is really important. And I felt like if there was one part of my career that I wanted to fulfil, it would be working in my own community.

Shannon:

Yeah, it's really, it shines through you with everything that you say, how prevalent that connection to community is. What does it mean for you now being back teaching in your community, and leading, actually I should say?

Tammy:

Yeah I think one of the things when you're in a low socio-economic school, and you've come from that as a person, you know the talent and potential that exists in that community. And so, I kind of live with this motto of like rhetoric matching reality. And I know that we want to raise results, and that that is our absolute intention and our focus, and our target, and I kind of really wanted to be the person who puts some actions in place for that. And so, it probably sounds very romantic, but it actually is what kind of keeps me humming and moving along. And I just feel like there's so much untapped potential in our communities. And I don't ever proclaim that because I'm from that community, and you know, everyone should be a teacher. I would love them all to be teachers but everyone has their own talent, and their own unique skillset. And I just relish being able to be involved in some way, shape, or form, of families and communities, you know, being better places than maybe when I arrived, yeah.

Siobhan:

So, do you have a high percentage of other Aboriginal staff at your school?

Tammy:

Yeah, we do. We've got just under 50% of our children, Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander. And our staff, one of the things for me, is we've been really focused on obviously just recruiting well, doesn't matter who you are, but we also had a real focus on ensuring that our kids, like me, get that opportunity to see more Aboriginal faces. Whether it's front office staff, you know, our GAs out there on the lawn mower, our support staff in classrooms, our teachers, our executive. So, what I love about our school, is our Aboriginal staff are peppered across the whole school. And it's inspiring for kids, but it's also inspiring for community and people who work in the school to see Aboriginal faces

Shannon:

It's that representation, isn't it.

Tammy:

At all places and spaces. I think that's really important. And they're all leaders in their own rights, leading in different spaces across the school. And so yeah, that's super inspiring for me. So, we're at about, I think about, just under 30% of Aboriginal staff. And so, one of the things that I would love us to be working at, is that our Aboriginal student population and our staff ratios are very similar. And I think that really just brings a deeper sense of identity, a deeper sense of belonging for our kids.

Shannon:

Yeah, absolutely.

Tammy:

I do feel like that.

Shannon:

I love how you sort of, you know, brought up about representation in community, as well, and how important that is for community members to see that. How do you work towards building that collective efficacy almost, across community, staff, students within your school, and foster that representation?

Tammy:

I think one of the things that we've done to foster capacity, and foster really deep relationships, is the focus on relationships. And I know we talk about it as teachers. But relationships actually don't happen that naturally. And, you know, I've kind of led and grown up with that belief that as a teacher, we're paid to be in a relationship, the community's not. And so, we really have to work hard at that, and it needs to be part of our focus. And when you get it, everything else comes easier. When you don't have it, I think that's when it can be a little bit of a challenge. And, you know, I see people, you know whether they're new to the school, or been at the school for a long time, having meaningful, deep, sometimes challenging conversations, but they're not as hard as they probably should be, or could be, because they've got really meaningful relationships. And it's about the care factor that you have for the humans in the space. And I think we do, we have a, I suppose a motto that we work out, it's just a bit of leadership work with Lencioni and his stuff. But he says, 'Hungry, humble and smart is how you should lead.' And so, we kind of build that across our ethos of our school. So, every staff member, you know, ‘hungry, humble and smart’. And so, they're just 3 things that we remind ourselves about. And I think it goes a long way in terms of building morale amongst each other, but also about the way that you act each and every day.

Shannon:

Yeah, I really like that point, I resonate with it a lot because I think, you know, thinking about like the students holistically, like I would love when I had parent teacher interviews, we used to have them at my school at the end of Term 1, and having that time to sit down and, you know, run through students’ academic learning, but also, what I learnt about their child as a little person, you know? And who they are, and the mutual respect and understanding that is built from those interactions with parents. Because they just want to know that you have their child's best interest at heart. And I used to just love having that time to sit with them and go through, and say, 'Hey, like I've noticed this about them. Do they do that at home?' Or like, ‘This is how they do this in class, or how they interact.’ And you just see that sense of pride in parents when they do speak about their children. Like it's just such a rewarding, it's a huge responsibility, but once you build that connection with parents, that's a relationship that's going to stand the testament of time for you along the way with that student in your class.

Tammy:

Absolutely, I think the word that we don't talk about enough is authenticity. And the most authentic teacher is the one that parents most relate to. And it's really easy to wear that teacher badge and kind of go to the conversation with all of your teacher talk. But it's the moment that you kind of talk to people like they are, just people. And really fundamentally, every human just wants safety and care

Shannon:

Exactly.

Tammy:

As a core, you know, core thing to happen for them. And I think that when you have a conversation with parents where they see that is resonating really strongly, they're the parents that kind of go, ‘I really like that teacher, that teacher really cares.’ And then you can do the other really deep work, you know? But I think that to get anyone engaged in a room, if they don't feel like they're cared for, that really will, really will impact on them each and every day.

Shannon:

Absolutely, yeah.

Siobhan:

And so, what advice would you give to like a beginning teacher, or even a more experienced teacher who's new to a school, to sort of form connections, not just within the school, but with the wider community?

Tammy:

For us, beginning teacher support looks different for everybody. Not everybody needs the same things. But I think there's fundamental things that we need to do to make sure that people feel like they're on their best foot forward when they kind of hit that gate. One of the most exciting things that we've been doing, and trying to do, it's getting a little bit more challenging at the moment with just having the spare staff, but we're still making it work for us, is giving our beginning teachers new to our school, time to settle in. And if we can get them the term before, we really prefer that. So, been trying to take away for people, a little bit of that, a little bit of that anxiety about starting in a new school. So, we've been lucky enough to get people like fourth term, whether we've got them for blocks, or some good runs. Whether they're appointed as new grads, or they're temps that we know are coming in. Then we can really get them knowledgeable about the way in which we teach in our school, the pedagogy that we kind of prescribe to, all of the system type things. And then they get to spend a bit of time with that over that break, just being able to sit with it, ask questions. But I think first, and foremost, the most important thing is getting them partnered up with someone who can show them the ropes, and show them the ropes well. It goes back to that support structure and systems.

Shannon:

Buddy system, almost.

Tammy:

Yeah. Just that they're comfortable enough to ask. What I find with beginning teachers, they do really love the support of one another. Because I think that, you know it's like, 'Oh, you're new, and I'm new.'

Shannon:

Yeah, shared experience.

Tammy:

Yeah, there's massive worth in that.

Shannon:

Oh yeah.

Tammy:

What you want to do though, is have someone around them that can also give them the answers that they might need. But I also think that it's easier to ask a new colleague, than someone that you're being supervised by. So, we've previously, for us, we've had people after a period of time, select their own mentor because there's a lot of worth in being able to select the person that you see on staff. And it's quite interesting the people who I think I might select, versus the people that, you know, a beginning teacher might look to because they're looking for different things. So yeah, it's again, depending on what someone needs and how they need it, I think that's the best way for us. Making sure that they've got a little bit of a customised approach to their beginning years of teaching.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Tammy:

Some of the most successful teachers I've seen, and I know we're in a space where we've got to care for ourselves as teachers, that's really important, but these are the teachers that I've seen be highly effective when you know, you've got a super, kind of talented person in your room, or someone who's struggling a little bit and they play footy on the weekend. Just being able to know about that footy team. Teachers who go and watch the game, you know, on a Saturday, yeah it's time out of their day, and they choose to do that. But the turn that that can take for a little person, and particularly in our setting, those things are really important. I think, you know, our children sometimes, I think that everyone's behaviours are their way of getting their needs met. And so, really kind of having a look at that, and taking yourself out of it, I think as an adult, when you're able to regulate yourself and understand yourself deeply, you can really work successfully with everybody, but particularly kids. And I think the teachers that I've seen are able to connect with the community. You know, going to things like NAIDOC events. They're there for everybody. And a lot of my teachers will take their families and get out there, and know the community deeply. Utilising things like our, you know, we've got services that are specific for our people, whether it's a medical service. So, in our community, we have a medical service. But it's also a GP service for everyone. And so, you know, people go out there and use the doctors. And so, our kids seeing teachers going, 'Oh, they use the same doctor as me.' And we're of one community. And I think it does make a difference when you dive a little bit deeper, and prepare to be a little bit vulnerable with knowing kids in communities that maybe aren't yours, or you haven't had experiences with before.

Shannon:

Yeah, I really like how you're talking about being authentic, as well. Getting involved, throwing yourself into it. And embracing all that there is. And we've had discussions off-camera about the value and the importance of having a Yarn and just having that conversation. Can you talk to us a little bit about that?

Tammy:

Yeah I think that one of the most beautiful things about us as a people, is the way in which we connect. And that's where terms like 'Yarn', and those kind of things come from. But really it's just a connection, a relationship. And we do that in a very meaningful, authentic way. So, probably some of the things that I've talked to you about today, I think, for us, having those conversations allows us to be connected and build trust. And trust drives pretty much what's going to happen between you as a teacher and that family. And I think that, you know, I've really tried to prescribe to that in our school setting, where that's kind of part of our practice as colleagues with one another, we have those type of conversations and Yarns. And whether they are set up formally with check-ins, or whether they're less informal, for me it's just an opportunity to be able to stop the noise for a bit, get the connection, and then go forward. And I think, you know, things like, country connections, and kin and those cultural structures to us as people, they come through our conversations. But you know, I feel that it really just is that deep sense of I know a little bit more about you. You now know a little bit more about me. I know where you sit in the world, where I sit in the world, and we can now work forward.

Siobhan:

How can an early career teacher approach a more experienced leader or another teacher to start a Yarn? I loved how you talked about check-ins, but that would rely a lot upon, you know, someone within the school making time to check in with them. So, how could a beginner teacher approach someone more experienced to start that line of conversation?

Tammy:

Yeah, I think one of the things for me is that the success of teachers in schools does rely on the network and the support that you build around you. And I think straight off the bat, identifying who it is on staff that you think might have the skills and experiences to help you. Like I always say, you know, ask the right people because sometimes you might have a question, but you're asking the wrong person. And that's okay but I think if it doesn't, it doesn't land with one person, you go and find someone else, and you start to build those conversations. Letting people know as much as you're comfortable with. I'm a kind of person that, you know, I just kind of let it all go in a conversation. I don't mind having a pretty deadly Yarn. But I think that's also the way in which I've grown up, and the way that I experienced the world. And it's also being mindful that not everyone in a school, we all come from different walks of life and we have lived experiences that look differently. So, you know, what you are comfortable with might look different to someone else. But if you're looking to kind of get into, understanding more about cultural protocols, and those kind of things in your school, you know, if there's no one in your school, there's things around you, whether it's the AECG, or your local community. And at the end of the day, sometimes it's just that parent in the school that you can connect with. And without putting cultural loading on our community, or our staff members, sometimes there might be an Aboriginal person, who, you know, doesn't have that answer. There are people that do. And so, again, just ask the right people. And you know, I think you end up finding the right answers.

Shannon:

Yeah, absolutely. Talk to us a little bit about wellbeing at your school. What does that look like?

Tammy:

Yeah, it's the hot topic, right? And you know when we were talking about at the start of the year, when we’ve kind of been on a different journey with wellbeing, but wellbeing has always been there for us as teachers. I just think it's been highlighted now, which is important. And I think that teachers have, like I've seen networks of teachers who have understood wellbeing, and done a really great job of managing their wellbeing, or the wellbeing of others. And I think, again, going back to networks and supports, like I think that for me, they're the strongest wellbeing points that you have. Obviously, trying to get out of school a little bit earlier, and maybe putting the laptop away. Those kind of things matter. But for us at our school, we have a real commitment to holding each other up. And you know, we talk about truth over comfort and one of the things that I find is sometimes when you leave school, and you haven't had that conversation, or you haven't asked that niggling question, they're the things that can kind of weigh on you a little bit, particularly if you're a beginning teacher. And so, we really encourage people just to ask. Like, what's the worse thing that's going to happen?

Shannon:

Yep.

Tammy:

Someone will say, 'No.' It's not the worst thing in the world. But you have to build an environment where people are comfortable to do that. And I think we've been really committed to doing that. The other thing is, we like to have fun. And I think having a group of people around you, who like to do that is super exciting. And we do things like create, we play 'Cluedo’. And it probably sounds quite brutal, but it's not. We have, so you get a name in an envelope, you get a weapon. So, the weapon might be a pen, I know it sounds brutal, it's not. You can get, I promise it complies with all the work health and safety. But it might be a pen, or a ruler, and then you get a location. So, you know, and everyone's in it, everyone's in it. And so over the course of the term, you get killed. And, you kind of get, we have.

Shannon:

Oh, this goes for a whole term?

Tammy:

Oh, it goes until everybody is dead.

Shannon:

Oh my gosh, I love this.

Tammy:

But, you know, it keeps morale, so people are like

Shannon:

Yeah.

Tammy:

Conspiring and you know, little things like that where you go to work, and we do the serious stuff well,

Shannon:

Yeah.

Tammy:

But we also know that we need to look after ourselves. We've got a wellbeing committee. And they are committed to making sure that there's something exciting kind of happening around our place. We did like the Olympics. Everyone's in an Olympic team and before we kick off our staff meetings, like it might be a game. Whether it's an egg or spoon, or it's a quick amazing race.

Siobhan:

Oh yeah.

Tammy:

You’ve got to have a bit of energy when you get to these things. But it's about how we are together, and I think that that's where the value is and that's where wellbeing can be best met. So, we do a lot of our work, we just did a big PL session on, you know, extreme ownership. And I don't know if you've ever seen that stuff, comes out of the States, his name is Jocko and he's a former marine SEAL but he talks about how we have to have extreme ownership. So, when a conversation doesn't happen, like where am I in that? Or when I'm feeling down or something's happened, have I, you know, do I have the ability, or have I exercised extreme ownership and had a conversation with someone about that? So, I think those little things do go a long way in building the capacity of people to be well. Rather than just going, 'Oh, it's wellbeing.' But what is that and how do you help people be well? We've got all the departmental services to us, which I think are phenomenal and we’ve got so many resources coming out, and those things like EAPs. But at the end of the day, it's your colleagues that keep you up. And so yeah, we've really kind of invested in making sure that we're well together.

Shannon:

Yeah, it's also like thinking about myself as a beginning teacher, like that simple thing of I have 175 million questions I need to ask. Who am I going to go to? And you know, I internalise them and don't ask anyone, because I've dubbed them a silly question. Sometimes your supervisor might be your AP, for example. You know, they have a very different workload, but identify that teacher next door, or someone else like a trusted colleague that you can sort of maybe categorise your questions, I suppose and I started doing that and that was really beneficial for me, because I, often, I am a bit of a question master but it's how I understand things. Like, I have to ask 20 million questions to understand how to move forward.

Tammy:

And then, how do we encourage kids to ask questions if we don't?

Shannon:

Exactly.

Tammy:

We've got to role model bravery.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Tammy:

You know, and I think one of the things that I see and talk about it a lot with my teachers, is the perfectionism in the craft. And we've got this self-imposed belief where we need to be perfect. And I think sometimes that holds people back from asking all of those questions. But you just have to ask. What's the worst that's going to happen? You're just going to get told, 'No.' You know?

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Tammy:

I think that that's getting out of your head that we don't expect, particularly our beginning teacher, we don't expect them to be perfect. We've all been there. So, I think as a more experienced teacher, now I expect people to ask questions. That's part and parcel of what our job is to do and answer them. But I think also, our beginning teachers to know that part of their job is to ask those questions.

Shannon:

Yeah. Absolutely.

Siobhan:

Or even feel safe to debrief, like,

Shannon:

Oh yeah.

Siobhan:

Outside of professions of teaching, like debriefing is so important, and embedded within the profession, as well. So, I think, yeah, finding that safe space to ask questions. And you might have a different person who you debrief to at the end of the day. Like, they might not be a person within the school. It could be someone within your personal life. But I think, yeah, having that comfort in knowing who to go to for certain things is really important.

Shannon:

And there's nothing like a teacher-to-teacher debrief. We speak this different language almost.

Tammy:

It's like when you sit on the tables at the end of the day and you

Shannon:

Yeah.

Tammy:

Can't really think anymore but I'm just going to tell you, I'm just going to blurt all these things.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Tammy:

And you know, sometimes I don't say anything back, you just [nods head].

Shannon:

Yeah, that's all you need. You just need a sounding board. And sometimes like for me to call a friend, or even call my mom. She's not a teacher, but I just want to list off all the acronyms that I need someone to just understand. 'Mum, I just can't tell you what that acronym means right now.'

Siobhan:

Yeah, my mum would be like, 'Wait, go back 10 steps.'

Shannon:

Yeah.

Siobhan:

'What's an IEP? No, Mum, not now, that's not the point.'

Shannon:

‘You don't know what happened.’

Siobhan:

‘That's not the point of the story.’

Tammy:

And you know, I like love like the switch off point. Like you just have to know that it's okay not to think about that. It's okay to just park that. Oh, obviously all the big things, yes, you think about but it's okay just to take that time. And we've heard it a lot this year in particular about switching off. But, actually, nothing happens when you do that.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Tammy:

It's good for you.

Siobhan:

100%. You were mentioning earlier as part of your talk on wellbeing, the concept of having someone to go to, but I'm wondering if you in your own time, throughout your classroom experience and beyond into leadership, have you had a mentor that's helped shape your experiences within the school?

Tammy:

Yeah, I've had lots and I think that's the other thing. You know, as you progress your career, things look different, your lens becomes different. And so, I'm constantly looking at other people. Whether they're people who I know in corporate, people who are not in education. Like, I like to try and take things from everybody and I like to get different points of view. I think sometimes when you're only getting one point of view, on things over a long period of time, it's important that for deep reflection, that you are able to hear things from other people. And I like things pretty frank and straight up. I think that I'm not really about the fluff and you don't need to make me feel good. So, I find people who can just really give it to me in that way. So, finding people who are always going to say yes to me, or going to give me the fluffy stuff, won't really work for me. That'll make me feel good for a minute but to grow.

Shannon:

You want that challenge.

Tammy:

Yeah, I find I’ve got like the balance. Sometimes I'll just go to, you know, that one friend, or a colleague who’ll go, 'Oh, Tammy, you're doing a great job.' 'Oh, thank you. I'm just going to go over here.' And you want that. And then you also need that person goes, 'Hey, I noticed that you did that. I think next time you could do that. What do you think about that?' And you're like, 'No, love that too.' So, I think getting different people, different lenses, people who have walked different walks of life, I think if I just had one, it's not robust enough for me. So, kind of looked, and had some brilliant ones, had some brilliant ones.

Shannon:

Even like on the other side of the fence, thinking about mentors I've had because I don't really align with the fluffy, either. I like just,

Siobhan:

Neither do I.

Shannon:

'Tell me what we need to get.' It's why we get along.

Siobhan:

I don't need the positive sandwich. I don’t need the ‘positive, negative, positive’.

Shannon:

Don't cushion me. Just tell me how we get from here to here in the best way possible, and how we can improve.

Siobhan:

But, some people

Tammy:

Want it differently.

Siobhan:

Want it in a different way.

Shannon:

Well that's what I'm saying, so like thinking on the other side, I've had mentors who really spent the time to get to know me and how I receive feedback, like, and what was sort of like, what made me sort of work. And I really appreciated that because I remember this one mentor, he was my AP at the time, he kind of said like, 'There's no point in me telling you, you know, all the wonderful things. You're just going to switch off, glaze over, like you do to me and you just want to know how you can improve.' And I'm like, 'Yep. Off you go.' I'm glad, like, I was like, 'Wow. I feel really seen walking away from that conversation because that person has taken the time to like understand how I teach as a team member.' So I, yeah, I really appreciate hearing that.

Tammy:

And then as I've become a leader, I've had to learn that not everyone receives it, or wants it like that.

Shannon:

Exactly.

Tammy:

You've got to be able to go, 'OK, so how do I deliver it to that person with the same intentionality?' And you want the same impact for them but the delivery has to be

Shannon:

Differentiated.

Tammy:

Yeah, differentiation.

Shannon:

Yeah, absolutely.

Siobhan:

There's actually a study about the newest generation or whatever need like 17 compliments a week or something.

Shannon:

Yeah, there's a lot of research into, yeah. Because you know, this is the crazy thing, like even the students we're teaching today, the way they're going to perceive feedback and what they need is going to be so vastly different

Tammy:

Absolutely.

Shannon:

To our current workforce.

Tammy:

And the other thing is we're preparing them for jobs that don't even exist.

Shannon:

It's mind-blowing.

Tammy:

The complexity of being a teacher in 2024 and beyond is there, but like so is the reward. Like teaching kids who are going to do jobs that don't even exist, who will blow our minds with what they can do. You just think 'Wow.' Like being part of that. That's what teaching's about. Being part of that, you know?

Shannon:

Absolutely. And as a principal, you know, what's the best part of your role?

Tammy:

Oh, what is the best part of my role?

Shannon:

We're throwing the hard-hitters, aren't we?

Tammy:

No, I think the role. The role in its entirety. The good and the bad and the ugly, all part of it. Personally for me, it's been like a career aspiration, like I said, to be in my own community. That was really important to me but I never feel like it's a ‘tick, tick’ because I think if you're committed to schools and communities, there's always something else. There's always somewhere to go for me and I feel like probably the best part of my role is being able to, and I said it before, but leave my own community better than I found it and I think that I did just my little contribution. Like, I don't believe I'm the world changer alone but perhaps when I go, I've left the school looking and thinking a little bit different for the next generation.

Shannon:

It’s like your legacy, isn't it?

Tammy:

Yeah, you know, that work and it fits very much so with who I am culturally as an Aboriginal woman. So, I feel like the alignment of who I am and where I am is always really important to me and I think that everyday I go to work, and I enjoy what I do, and who I do it with. And so, yeah, I think they're all parts of the, they're all the best parts of the job.

Shannon:

I'll tell you, Tammy, you are very inspiring. Honestly, you are.

Tammy:

Oh, thank you.

Siobhan:

I'm interested to hear if you’ve ever had like a student or another teacher, change your practice? You know, you found yourself in the classroom, and you're like, 'Oh, wow, I would do that totally different because of this experience.'

Tammy:

Yeah, lots, lots. Particularly, kids. You know, we're not cookie cutters. Every child's different, ticks to a different beat. And I think that just that little nuances of knowing children know, you know, that you move a little bit differently, or you talk a little bit differently. Your expectation stays the same. You're just meeting them at different points. I think I've worked with so many people who have shaped me. I am who I am because of who I work with and the way I'm operating today is because I've got a team that challenge me and can walk in my office and go, 'I don't reckon we should do that. I reckon...' And I'll be like, 'OK, well tell me more about that.' I don't even have to ask them that because they're usually telling me about it before it comes out of my mouth. But they're also not afraid to say to me, 'Oh, Tammy, I didn't like that decision that you made and this is why.' And I love that. That really, that's exciting for me to have a group of people who completely trust you, and you trust them. I've got people who, one of the things that I've always been committed to, is around culture and identity, and that sense of belonging, building that in a school environment. And that's probably been some of my pride points in my work as a principal but really now, challenging ourselves to think about how our kids are working academically and this alignment between what we do in the pedagogy, and what we do in terms of our cultural understandings and learnings. And so, we're getting, doing some beautiful work there. And I've learnt how we get that alignment from having a really talented team. Whether it’s my AP, C&Is, and drilling down into what we're doing in the classroom, you know, Aboriginal cultural leaders in the school. And then I just, yeah, I really just get the absolute luxury of trying to bring it all together.

Siobhan:

I'm going to ask you a big question now, which is how do you want your staff and students to remember you?

Tammy:

Yeah, that I challenge mediocrity.

Shannon:

Mm.

Tammy:

Yeah. And I never accepted it. Yeah.

Shannon:

I love that because you're making people feel like it's okay for them to do the same and go on and do it. Like be empowered to do it.

Tammy:

Absolutely. And if I'm true to my word, or what I want to do and have done in my own community, that you know, we can't accept substandard and we want the best, but also we have to be the best. So, in being in a low socioeconomic school community, I want my kids to be able to mix it with everyone and anyone and we're going to give them the environment that they deserve to do it in. And so, whether that's in the classroom or what we're learning, or the actual environment.

Shannon:

Yeah, rightly so, proudly publicly educated.

Tammy:

100%. It's knowing how purposeful your work is that I think keeps you going.

Shannon:

Yeah, absolutely.

Siobhan:

It's why I love it, because it keeps you invigorated, right? I don't think that you can ever go stale

Tammy:

No.

Siobhan:

In the profession, because there's always so much to learn. And it's this, you know, ever evolving space. And you have new students each year, adapting to their needs. And you know, you can be challenged, or expanded through leadership opportunities and things like that. So, I think it's just one of those rewarding careers where you can actually see day, upon day, upon day, that you're making a difference and I don't know if you can say that about a lot of other careers.

Tammy:

Yeah, absolutely. 100%, I agree. You know, I think I have a little bit of love and preference for the little guys. I loved being a kindy teacher. Although my need for excitement doesn't wear too well when you're 5. So, I've got to rein that in for the first 2 terms. But you know, when you get them to when they leave you, being able to kind of go, 'I helped them do that.' There's no better feeling. It's hard to describe what that is.

Shannon:

And you know, the tears you shed, that you can't really sometimes shed in front of your students, about the ones that you've watched grow up in your school context and your school environment. Like, or you've seen 3 siblings go through.

Tammy:

Absolutely.

Shannon:

Like, it's insane and I remember, I did teach 2 siblings in a row over a number of years. And saying goodbye to that family. Like, I was like, I feel like a bit of my family is leaving.

Tammy:

Absolutely. I find the Christmas holidays, when I say goodbye to a Year 6 year, it always takes me a week to wind down. I need a week, and then my holidays can begin because I just, I just, that's my.

Shannon:

You have to decompress.

Tammy:

Yeah, but the Christmas holidays, for myself I like it a little bit lull for the couple of days before Christmas kicks in, because I, you realise that you’ve had them, we've got a preschool, so we have them from preschool through to Year 6. It's a long time to spend with people's children. And the mere factor, that they trust us enough to give us their most precious commodity. And then you know, you see them go on to high school and you think, 'Oh, I just want you for one more year.' And you get the parent say, 'Can you have them for another year?' ‘I don't think I legally can, but I'd like to.’

Shannon:

Yeah. And when they come back and visit, like there's no greater, oh my gosh. 'What do you mean you're this tall? How come I'm looking up at you now?'

Tammy:

And then they're all crying when they leave, but then by end of Term 1 in Year 7, 'Oh Miss, primary school, I love high school.' ‘I'm sure you do.’

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Shannon:

At times there can be a perception that, you know, teaching is this traditional, limited number of opportunities as a profession. Could you talk to us a little bit about your understanding of that?

Tammy:

Yeah, I think when I came into the profession, I probably would have thought, 'I'm just going to be a classroom teacher and that's what I can and will do,' with that degree that you're waving when you leave. But I have had the best experiences and a multitude of experiences through the door of teaching. And you know, in this system there are so many opportunities. I've had opportunities to present keynotes overseas at various conferences and interstate opportunities to work corporately, and have a look at, you know, a life beyond a school. The opportunity to be able to get outside of your classroom and go beyond, like experiences being rural and remote. I've had opportunities to be in the Territory and teaching, and they've all come through teaching in NSW at the department. And I think that if you had told me that the day I kind of walked into teaching, I would never have believed it. And there is the natural progression that you can follow in a school but there's so many other opportunities and not just in the sense of career, but opportunities to be part of things bigger than yourself, your passion points. You know, whether you want to do School Spec, if you love drama, when I see people doing those kinds of things, I think, 'Wow, I just don't think that would have ever come across my mind when I was 22 and starting out in teaching.' I saw myself as a classroom teacher and I always will see myself as a classroom teacher, but I also see myself as part of being in a system that has so many opportunities. And you’ve just got to be prepared to chase them if you want them but they're certainly out there. And yeah, I would never have believed I would have had the opportunities that I've had back then.

Shannon:

And the transferable skills from being a classroom teacher, it's insane. Like when you think about, I mean, we could sit here and talk all day about the skills and capabilities that you develop as a classroom teacher. But it's just incredible to see, you know, wonderful teachers being able to step into other roles within the department, with those transferable skills.

Tammy:

Absolutely, and I've seen people who have been phenomenal operators as classroom teachers go on to want to do things I would never have thought they might of, and they probably didn't even think they would have gone down that path. They've taken an opportunity and they've run with that. And you know, one moment they're over here and working in communication and then, you know, the next they're over here working in Aboriginal education and there's so many opportunities to grow yourself, and grow your space. And you know, things like being part of, some of the greatest joys for me, was being part of things like advisory groups, or you know, on the PPA Association. Contributing to conversations and actions that are bigger than yourself and for me, they are things that fill my bucket. And you know, it's easy to be able to do that in your school but I suppose when you come in, what I would say to people is there's so much more that you can do, if you're willing.

Shannon:

You mentioned the PPA just there, for people who are listening at home who might not know what the PPA is, can you just give us a little bit of a rundown?

Tammy:

Yeah, it's the Primary Principals’ Association and so, it's just that opportunity to be with colleagues. Again you get into those rooms, I'll learn something every time I go there, you know? I come back with a billion and one ideas. My team don't like me going to things, because then I come back, I go, 'Oh, heard of that. Yes, or I did this.' But that's exciting to me.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Tammy:

You know, that opportunity that you can and you will grow. And it's not tokenistic, you know, a PDP in a school. You get the support to be able to grow yourself and one of the things that I have most relished is the opportunity to do things beyond my school.

Siobhan:

Interested to know, Tammy, how you celebrate diversity and culture within your school?

Tammy:

Yeah, love that space for us. We've really challenged the notion that it doesn't happen on certain days and certain weeks that we, we have to live and breathe that if we're really about belonging, and that sense of belonging. Like, our kids need to see their cultures being valued each and every day. We probably were very fortunate to be able to really do a lot of deep work around Aboriginal education. We've done that for a number of years. And so, we've kind of built out this space now, which is like a life force unto itself but very purposeful, alignment with our plan and it really meets the needs of our local school community. You know, thinks like, we’ve got language program happening. We've got, and what's beautiful about that, some of the transference that we've made from the learnings in Aboriginal education, we've transferred them to what we call our Tasman Sea School. And so, I have a large population of Māori children and children of the Pacific background. And so, the sense of belonging that our Aboriginal students have grown in, I really wanted to see about how we grow that in our other students who come from other backgrounds. And like, a lot of our Aboriginal kids, they're all off country, too. And so, we did a fair bit of work with a school in Whangārei, and bringing some language to our kids virtually during COVID. And now we've got our own language teacher from our community who works in that space. And to see this notion of what works in Aboriginal education is working for other cultures is beautiful but at the same time, it's also met our purpose of making sure that we are lifting the profile of many cultures, as much as we are ourselves. And so, within our Aboriginal Education Program, there's so many elements to it. Whether it's language and language acquisition, whether it's around cultural competency, working with our kids. We've tried to really deepen the knowledge of our teaching staff. We know that for a lot of teachers who might not have the same lived experiences as us, as Aboriginal people, that we’ve got a job to do to develop our teachers. And so, we do a lot of like co-design, and co-delivery, so that people don't feel alone in that deep perspective space. So, we've really challenged the depth of our perspectives, and gone very deep with it but at the same time, no teacher is unsupported. So, we've got an Aboriginal culture and curriculum teacher who kind of leads the charge in that space. And we do a lot of partnering up with Aboriginal organisations and services that do a phenomenal job with our kids. But we leverage off them, and so utilise a lot of services to do a lot of work around wellbeing in some of the southern spaces of Sydney.

Shannon:

Amazing.

Tammy:

Yeah.

Shannon:

Thank you for sharing. My last point today, Siobhan and I are very fond of myth busting.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Shannon:

We'd love to know, a common myth that across the teaching profession, give us a myth you can bust.

Tammy:

A myth I can bust?

Siobhan:

What do you want to debunk?

Shannon:

Yeah. Let's debunk together on the coach.

Tammy:

There's so many, though.

Shannon:

I know.

Tammy:

I think there's a misconception that teaching is 2 things. It's an easy role, or it's a limited career path and I couldn't think of a greater misconception than that. For me, none of those things have been true. When I look around at the teams that I've worked with, the people that I've worked with that are super successful either in their careers in schools, or outside of schools working corporately, it's because they've had opportunity, and they've not been limited. Is it a challenging career? For me it's no less challenging than any other career as a professional. And I think that the rewards far outweigh any of the challenges.

Siobhan:

That's all we have time today for unfortunately because Tammy, I could speak to you for hours, upon hours, upon hours. I find you extremely inspiring and you said you fangirled over us, but we 100% totally fangirl over you, so.

Shannon:

You'll be the topic of conversation at the dinner table tonight, just know.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Tammy:

I've been telling everybody, ‘Oh, I'm going to meet the girls on the couch.’ So, same goes.

Shannon:

We'll get a lovely photo together after this.

Siobhan:

I just wanted to say thank you so much for joining us today.

Shannon:

Sincerely.

Siobhan:

If you enjoyed this episode and know somebody who would be equally as inspired by it, I encourage you to share it with a friend. But until next time, we'll see you on the next episode. Bye.

Shannon:

Thank you for tuning in to the Teach NSW Podcast, where we explore the dynamic world of education. Don't forget to follow, like and subscribe, to be notified when new episodes become available. You can find us on social media via our handle @TeachNSW. Until next time, keep learning, keep teaching, and keep making a difference. This podcast is produced by the Teach NSW team, from the NSW Department of Education.


Resources and useful links

  • Teach NSW - become a teacher in a NSW public school and find out how a career in teaching can open doors for you.

  • Join our mob - be supported by the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Recruitment and Programs team and make a difference as a teacher in a NSW public school.

  • NSW Aboriginal Education Consultative Group (AECG) - discover who the AECG members are in your local area and find resources to support Aboriginal education.


We acknowledge that this episode of the Teach NSW Podcast was recorded on the homelands of the Darug people. We pay respect to Elders past and present and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander peoples listening to the Teach NSW Podcast today.

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If you would like to provide feedback or suggestions for future episodes, please contact teachnsw@det.nsw.edu.au to get in touch with the Teach NSW Podcast team. Follow the Teach NSW team on Facebook, Instagram, X (Twitter) and YouTube to be the first to know when new episodes are released.

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