Siobhan:

I'd like to acknowledge that this episode of the Teach NSW Podcast was recorded on the Homelands of the Darug People. I'd like to pay respect to Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and/or Torres Strait Islander peoples listening to the Teach NSW Podcast today.

Opening Credits:

Welcome to the Teach NSW Podcast. A podcast by teachers, for teachers. I'm Shannon, and, I'm Siobhan.

Shannon:

On this episode of the Teach NSW Podcast, we are joined by Sarah, who is an Assistant Principal on the lands of the Gadigal people and the Wongal people of the Eora nation. She's also known on social media as @giftedandtalentedteacher.So you may follow her or you may be familiar with her content already. And she's here with us today to talk all things leadership journey, talk a little bit about content creation, you know, how that sparks joy and just about her teaching journey in general. So thanks so much for joining us, Sarah.

Sarah:

Thank you for having me today. I'm so excited.

Siobhan:

Very excited to have you.

Sarah:

Thank you.

Siobhan:

Before we get into the nitty-gritty, let's do a little warm-up, a little rapid fire. This or that edition. You can't stop. You ready? Bus duty or canteen duty?

Sarah:

We don't have canteen duty, so I'm going to take whatever that, I'm going to take whatever that is.

Siobhan:

Yeah, Yeah, I like that.

Sarah:

I think because bus duty is after school, but it's rapid-fire, so let's keep going.

Siobhan:

Okay. Good. Good. Shannon, what are you?

Shannon:

I'm going to say canteen duty also. I love knowing what everyone's getting. I'm the nosey Nancy at the top of the line.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Shannon:

'Good morning. How are we going? What are we getting today at the shop?'

Siobhan:

I'm a bus duty, because in high school it's just like one and done ten-minute duty at the end of the day. So yeah, we love bus duty over here compared to canteen. They're a bit ravenous at that time. Okay. Controversial, tomato sauce. Do you keep it in the cupboard or the fridge?

Sarah:

I know this is controversial and I put it in the fridge.

Siobhan:

No, I'm a fridge girl too.

Sarah:

I'm in a safe space.

Shannon and Siobhan:

Yeah.

Shannon:

Welcome to the Teach NSW Podcast, where it's safe for wherever your condiments want to be held.

Siobhan:

All right. Digital planner or paper planner?

Sarah:

A paper planner. I've tried digital programming, digital planning. I've done it, but I keep coming back to paper. I think it's the physicality of taking it around the classroom and being able just to write notes and being messy and chaotic with it. Yeah, what about you guys?

Siobhan:

Paper. Yeah, digital.

Shannon:

I'm a digital girl. You will never catch me with a piece of paper. Like if someone says, 'Do you have a pen in your handbag?' There's no pens to be found. I've got a phone, it has a notes app. We can use that.

Sarah:

The notes app is fire. I'll give you that. Yeah

Shannon:

But I can't help you with that scrap of paper or a pen. It's not going to be found in my bag.

Siobhan:

And lastly, worksheets or slides?

Sarah:

Slides. And I say that with hesitation because I don't want to overuse. You don't want to overuse. They're a tool. They're a tool for teaching. They're not teaching. But, and I think with the digital world that we're moving towards and in, people lean into them. I think sometimes, a little bit too much.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Sarah:

But yeah, I'll go with slides. Disclaimer.

Siobhan:

I like that. Yeah, slides with the disclaimer as well for me. Yeah. What are you? Slides with a disclaimer?

Shannon:

Look, I was really fond of a, of a OneNote, so if I can use that as my slides. I was never a PowerPoint girl. I felt like I got really fixated on making it look the best it could be and sort of lost myself in the slides. But yeah, with OneNote I felt like I had the creativity to sort of like make it engaging, have my images and my beautiful text, but like, could draw all over it as well. And I know you can do that with PowerPoint, but that was just me.

Siobhan:

I suppose, let's sort of find out a bit more about yourself and why you chose teaching as a career. I mean, everyone has a story, so we would be interested to hear what yours is.

Sarah:

Yeah, of course. I mean, in terms of teaching, the teaching profession, it was something that I knew I always wanted to do. I think sometimes, you know, when we ask kids, What do you want to be when you're older, it's a little bit too early. But in my heart I felt like I wanted to be a teacher. And that stuck with me throughout high school. And I think it, it really comes back to having teachers at a certain point in my life that I really needed. I didn't realise at the time, but reflecting back, they were everything, yeah, that I needed all in one. And it it's not, it's funny, it's not necessarily the teaching and the learning that I think back and reflect on and go, 'Wow, that was powerful', it's how they made me feel. And I still carry that through with me into, into my job. Yeah.

Shannon:

Were you one of those little ones who was playing with your teddies, and had your little whiteboard?

Sarah:

Almost not that, but I thought where you were going with that one was were you one of those kids who, you know, was, for lack of a better word, teacher's pet, you know, like, so willing to help.

Siobhan:

I thrived off praise myself and helping the teacher.

Sarah:

Yeah, that was me. So it was just a happy place. So, no, I didn't. I didn't have the setup in the bedroom with, you know, the white board and the teddy bears as such but Yeah, no, it was just a good place. And I think that's why we as teachers, focus in on that learning environment, because it does make a difference, for kids.

Shannon:

I think it's nice to hear your story, and I was always like quite jealous of people that had like just sort of knew what they wanted to do. Like I myself, I didn't really know that I wanted to be a teacher.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Shannon:

I sort of like applied for a few different university degrees, didn't really know where what direction I wanted to go in. I feel like when you're 17 in year 12, Siobhan can probably talk to this teaching Year 12 students. You feel so young to be making those decisions. So it's, you know, one of those careers that you can go and do a different degree and you can do a Master's of Teaching a little bit later after that undergraduate degree, and you can come in and become a teacher, you know, once you've sort of found your feet a little bit more in life. So it's cool. There's a lot of different pathways, I suppose.

Sarah:

Yeah, and a lot of different reasons as to why people become teachers.

Shannon:

Sure. Yeah.

Sarah:

I think it's just what the kids benefit from.

Shannon:

Yes, absolutely.

Sarah:

Yeah. Interesting.

Siobhan:

I'd be interested to hear about your journey from university now to assistant principal and what that, university student to assistant principal and what that looked like.

Sarah:

Yeah. Yeah. So I, I had just admittedly really challenging prac experiences, like going out into the classroom for the first time and taking all that you've learnt at university and applying that, they are two different things. My goodness. I found it, yeah, really challenging. I went home exhausted. I went home drained. I did wonder, is this the profession for me? Yeah, but I think that's why you have those practical experiences, right? So, you know, it's it's those times that it's really important to have a mentor, someone to guide you for you to ask all the questions, all the you know, I won't say silly questions because no question is a silly question. So I found my feet slowly but surely on my prac experiences. And I was so excited to become a casual teacher. Like I know it's so daunting and I did, you know, admittedly think waking up at 6 a.m. in the morning, being told your on kindergarten, you know, daunting. Absolutely. But so exciting and yeah, I went around and I handed out my CV, my resume to local schools, and before I kind of knew it I was on blocks and I was like, 'Hey, the ball is rolling, I can do this'. And all my experiences were positive. I had my first year and a half, a little bit all over the place in that I was an RFF provider. I was taking groups of enrichment kids. I was teaching dance. You don't want to see these hips move.

Siobhan:

Shannon has such a similar story.

Sarah:

Because you know, you say yes to lots of different things.

Siobhan:

I feel left out that I've never been offered to take the dance group at school and you guys have.

Sarah:

I can organise something if you'd like.

Shannon:

It's trending on this podcast at the moment, we have guests and they'll talk about the dance club and I'm like, yeah, been there, done that.

Sarah:

Five, six, seven, eight.

Siobhan:

I'm personally the year 9 boys OzTag new fanatic. Yeah, that was where my skill set really thrived.

Sarah:

But it's like that isn't it, you say yes to so many different things and before you know it, I won't say you're an expert, but here we are.

Shannon:

I mean, if you see me up there two-step, one-step, we were moving.

Sarah:

Well I mean this isn't just audio, it's visual as well, so we might end on that note.

Shannon:

I might give you all a jig later.

Sarah:

But yes, so I was saying yes to lots and lots of different things. And look, before I knew it, I had a class of my own, which was just the most, the most exciting thing. It was a year four class. I still remember every single one of those kids, but it was those early days where, similar to wanting to be a teacher, and knowing I wanted to be an executive, and I knew that. I was really passionate about literacy and numeracy and getting it right. I was fortunate enough, bit of a shout out to Oakhill Drive Public School, to come from a high-performing, excelling school. When you look at the school excellence framework, they're excelling across the domains. So to be mentored by exceptional leadership really put me in a good place of what it looks like to be an exceptional teacher and to really make sure that I was confident in my craft and I had that down before I was ready to move up and on because it's not a race and it's not about that. And it's really important to be a really good teacher before you step into leadership. Sure you can start thinking about it, but it's really important to fall back on the standards and reflect on that quality teaching in the classroom. So I was really fortunate to be in that kind of environment and I then, goodness, landed a permanent classroom teacher position at a different school. Gosh, it's hard saying goodbye.

Shannon:

Isn't it, the tears.

Siobhan:

Yeah. I have that connection to my first school, Caringbah High School. That was like, it was so hard to leave. I think we had a goodbye morning tea and I couldn't even say a speech because I just cried the whole time.

Shannon:

It's your home and they're your family.

Siobhan:

Yeah, that that's sort of like your first home in teaching. And it means a lot like, it's where you grow, where you find your feet, there's connections forever, so yeah.

Sarah:

And you also think often, I'm going off on a tangent now, but you think that, that first school that you're at, is teaching.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Shannon:

Yeah

Sarah:

Like we're talking different contexts, we're talking different leadership styles, we're talking different kids, different communities, different principals. Principals make a massive, massive difference.

Shannon:

And, you know, and expectations?

Sarah:

Yeah, and I think any beginning teacher, any teacher out there who's kind of thinking, is change for me or like, you know, the profession is changing.

Siobhan:

Or is this it? Is this all that there is?

Sarah:

It's like, no, you know, shake it up, disrupt that linear path and and look elsewhere. It's so scary, but it's so rewarding, you know? So, yeah, I think there's power in change. My goodness. But yeah, as soon as I got to my new school, I was bold and I actually, I was bold, yes, however, did I pace up and down the corridor before I went into the principal's office. Yes. But I asserted myself to the principal. I just said, 'Hey, look, I'm really passionate about leadership. It's a journey that I would like to be on'. And I think having that conversation just put me in the forefront of her thinking, if and when something came up. And sure enough, it did. Yeah. And yeah, I then fell into relieving assistant principal and continued on my journey and was always, you know, looking to do things that impact whole school. Yes, my priority was maximizing the progress of the wellbeing of the kids in my class. But I just naturally had an urge to do that beyond the four walls of my classroom.

Siobhan:

You can do that, and then some that's probably how you felt, right?

Sarah:

Yeah.

Shannon:

Yeah. And I like how you said to talk to your principal, because Siobhan and I have spoken a little bit on the podcast about if you are interested in leadership early on in your career, your professional development plan is a wonderful place to start having that conversation around goals that you make for yourself professionally. With your supervisor, going and talking to the principal, there's wonderful opportunities that can be had from or that can be taken up from those conversations or can be made available or put into people's minds that that's what you're looking for to sort of upskill in that area. And I think that's really valid, what you're saying.

Sarah:

Yeah, and I think the Department of Education has come such a long way in that, you know, they have the School Leadership Institute partnering with University of Wollongong, partnering with University of Newcastle, and they have the School Leadership Identification Framework. So school teachers can actually use that framework to self-identify and approach principals. It gives them a platform to have that conversation.

Siobhan:

They have their own podcast as well, the School Leadership Institute and one of my friends she, in going for assistant principal roles, listen to that podcast and sort of equipped herself with even the meta language of leadership and what that looked like and, you know, get a different perspective. So there's so many valuable resources out there for developing your leadership potential.

Sarah:

And goodness, I can't believe I'm about to use this phrase, but back in my day, when I was going for the leadership positions, I didn't have that framework. And even I think in the last I want to say 12 months, maybe 24 months, they've released the Middle Leadership role description.

Siobhan:

Yes, yeah.

Shannon:

Brand new.

Sarah:

Brand spanking. So to now have a document that tells you exactly what's expected of your role, clarity, moving, wanting to step into it, or if you're in it to reflect is just incredible. So yeah, there are certainly some powerful tools floating around the department to give people in those positions something to grab onto and go, 'Right, where am I at and where do I need to get to next?'

Siobhan:

To me, sort of the whole theme of what you're telling us about that journey from university student to assistant principal and everything in between, the whole thing to me, sounds like being out of your comfort zone.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Siobhan:

And I feel like that's not something that everyone can maybe do. They feel that they're not equipped to do so. So I would be interested to hear if you have any advice, because it's obviously not easy, right? You might not be a person that's like, I'm taking risks every day of my life. Like, I would assume that there's some rhyme or reason or some sort of thought process that goes behind how I'm going to take risks.

Sarah:

Yeah, isn't that an interesting observation.

Siobhan:

I'm interested to hear about If you have advice of people who are looking to step out of their comfort zone but not might not be able to take that step.

Sarah:

Yeah, I guess it's really interesting you've observed that firstly. And secondly, the reason I find it interesting is because often people come to me when they're not sure about taking a risk. And the way that I say it, because I have taken risks before and they haven't paid off. But there is such beautiful learning, in it. I don't ever see something not eventuating as a bad thing. Yeah, I have my moments. Yeah. I get upset. Yeah. I ask you know, 'Why this? Why that?'

Shannon:

You're only human.

Sarah:

Aren't we. And I just stop for a moment. Don't get me wrong, I feel the feelings I have my processing time, but after that I kind of just go, 'What can I take away from this experience?' And 'what can I do to better myself?' Which isn't easy. I've spoken to a lot of teachers about the application process in terms of obtaining permanency and what it feels like to spend hours and hours and hours writing a CV for it not to be successful and or for you to go to interview and not experience success. And you cannot say to those people, if anyone said it to me, you can't say, 'Oh well, the silver lining is you've got some feedback, off you go on to the next one'. It just doesn't work like that. So that advice is really hard to take on board. But once you do process all of the emotion associated with not being successful, to take away, you know, those next steps for you. I think it's such a powerful thing. I think why not? And I do believe it's enabled me to keep going, keep taking risks.

Siobhan:

Putting yourself in that position and seeing what you can grasp from it. I think is really important. Yes. And it's something that like my own personal regret, even through university, was not doing a rural practicum. I only was ever placed at schools close to my home. And I'm like, 'Woo hoo, how convenient', But then for my own personal development, I almost feel like I didn't get to experience that community and for a lot of people they could go, 'Well, now it's too late'. And like of course, for a lot of people it might be, but for some it's never too late. So I would say that, yeah, my general advice is always within reason, step out of your comfort zone and see what the department can bring to you in that respect, because you're going to be exposed to new people, new communities, new types of lessons, new ways of delivering curriculum. If anything, you're gaining all of that experience from stepping out of your comfort zone.

Sarah:

Yeah. You develop as a teacher. Absolutely. You get to decide on what you do and don't like and what works for you and and what doesn't. And I always say opportunities breed opportunities. So to go out, you know, and have that opportunity, you're only going to meet more amazing people and experience more amazing things.

Shannon:

Touching on opportunities. So I think it's really valuable for our audience who potentially are pre-service teachers, beginning teachers, what are some opportunities you took early on in your teaching career that sort of shaped who you are today as a teacher?

Sarah:

Yeah, that's a really good question.

Siobhan:

Other than dance group, which is a formative part of your career journey.

Shannon:

Yes. Honestly, I would say I owe a lot to that dance group.

Sarah:

Well, it's brought you here today specifically.

Shannon:

It's really humbled me.

Sarah:

You're doing the the Teach NSW Podcast intro as a dance routine aren't you?

Shannon:

Oh absolutely, I had to learn a whole routine.

Sarah:

There's a reel in that. It's interesting you ask this question because I felt like this was going to come up. I reflected on it. And would I change my journey? No. My, however is, that I took on a lot. I took on so much.

Siobhan:

It's a common thread I think, between a lot of people. Yeah. Even whether you're in a temporary or permanent capacity, the way you always try to prove yourself. Yes.

Sarah:

You want to show that you're contributing, you know, you want to help out team members, you want to be the yes person. But I did go through my my first years as a people pleaser, and I am only now in the last 12 months coming to terms with the fact that it is okay to say no and it is ok to have...

Siobhan:

No is powerful.

Sarah:

Yeah, and it's a sentence in itself.

Shannon:

It is an answer in itself.

Siobhan:

No thank you, maybe next time.

Sarah:

Yeah, or I don't have capacity right now.

Siobhan:

Thanks for thinking of me.

Sarah:

Yeah. No. So I did. I took on a lot, and I think because I had that leadership, as we were talking about before that leadership journey in mind, I thought, okay, what does it look like to take on roles whole school? How can I show that I have capacity to do X, Y, Z? So, did I start that stage two swim school? Yeah, I did. Did I do the sports coordinator role when I had my very first class?

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Sarah:

Yeah. No, I did. Yeah. Which was massive, you know, organising a whole school, community sport and all of that kind of stuff, for lack of a better word. So taking on opportunities meant that I got to work with more people. I have so many mentors, people who come to mind, like hours after school, sitting in my classroom, planning with me, showing me, supporting me. 'This is where you find this in the sport store room'. 'This is what we do'. 'This is what you could do differently'.

Shannon:

But even things like writing risk assessment, you know, or like a variation to routine for example, if you are in a bigger school, it has a huge impact. Like we often joke that we have so many other hats that we wear as teachers, but I speak to friends who aren't in the teaching profession, they're like, 'You are also an events coordinator'. When you explain what goes into these and we're not really taught those skills at university and at the end of the day, you're doing it for your students.

Sarah:

Yeah, exactly.

Shannon:

So, yeah.

Sarah:

Exactly. And it's additional, it's extra. And you do it to give your kids opportunities. You do it not for the pay, not to be noted.

Shannon:

Not for the accolades.

Sarah:

No.

Siobhan:

You just do it.

Sarah:

They're nice though.

Shannon:

I wouldn't mind a merit certificate every now and again.

Sarah:

Wouldn't mind a call up on stage. No no. Yeah. So you do. Yeah. There's no argument about, you do it for the kids. So taking on those opportunities, I did that for the kids. I built incredible relationships within the community and it was rewarding. I'm just thinking of my first school, which is why I say was. And yeah, it's it's part of teaching. It's a part of it that needs to be recognised. I just think when you're starting out, it is okay to be in the classroom and just focus in on building confidence as a teacher and when you are approached to say, you know, oh so-and-so's gone on leave and now someone needs to organise the spelling bee. 'Thank you so much for thinking of me. I, you know, I just don't have capacity for it at this moment in time. Do you think that, you know, a couple of months down the track I could look at doing something else?'

Siobhan:

Assisting, shadowing. Or it can just be a firm 'No, I don't have the capacity right now. I'm still finding my feet'. And that's fine. I don't think there's any shame in building your craft within the classroom before you go and add an additional layer.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Siobhan:

In fact, I would recommend it to beginning teachers for sure.

Sarah:

And I know principals who are so supportive of that notion, like 'No, beginning teacher, first out'. Even beginning teachers who have mentors, you know, that should be one of the things they're teaching them straight out you know, that it is okay to say no.

Siobhan:

I was actually going to ask a question about you speaking mentorship, being a mentor but then also applying for roles. And I feel like the pinpoint in between there might be about, and something our listeners would be interested in, is writing an application. And where do you go to for help? Are you expected to do it on your own?

Shannon:

Because it's not something you're necessarily taught at university?

Sarah:

No, it's not. And it's not always something that people are well versed in, in a school context, because they're in the school context, right? They've done it and they've moved on from it or, you know, they're not necessarily looking around. My best piece of advice and something I just did by default was I use my notes app and I just, you know, put a header saying CV/resume, because when it comes to sitting down and writing your application, it's almost like 'I've done nothing, ever'.

Siobhan:

Okay, what do I actually do?

Sarah:

I teach.

Shannon:

And yeah.

Sarah:

And then you, you know, you have your beautiful colleagues around you who were like, 'No, no, you started that swim scheme, you know, remember you did the Sports Co-ordinator role, you were the Dance Instructor'.

Siobhan:

That's right. Yeah.

Sarah:

Yeah. And you have these moments of like 'Oh yes, oh yes'. And I think if you just keep track of it over time, even if it feels trivial in the moment, in terms of organisation.

Siobhan:

One of my friends Sophie, who's also a primary school teacher, she taught me that herself and she, she learnt it from one of her mentors, but she would set up just a monthly table, Jan all the way to December and would just write, her key achievements each month in there and then and look back on that. Yeah, it's a good way a) to reflect, but b) to remember what you did and the impact that it had. So I think that's actually a really great piece of advice, because then when she came to writing her application, she could just go, 'Okay, well, this question's asking me about how I use technology'. So she'd go back and look at her monthly grid and it was like, that one aligns, and I was the Computer Coordinator, and I got, you know, one-to-one devices in the school or something. So I think that's, yeah, a really key piece of advice. Yeah.

Sarah:

Yeah. It's, it's incredible. And you know, like every new year I start a new doc and I just scroll back through it, and even if I don't use it for an application purpose.

Siobhan:

It's also for your own…

Shannon:

Personal reflection…

Siobhan:

And growth. I think that's really important. Yeah.

Sarah:

Yeah. And also the Department of Education more recently than not have like a tab on their page called application process.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Sarah:

And if you go to that, there are so many different videos, there are so many different tips and tricks to help you write your CV. And the game has kind of changed in more recent years, which I'm sure you guys know in terms of specific fonts, specific sizing margins and your CV unfortunately can be put in the bin because of a font size. So…

Siobhan:

Yeah, yeah.

Shannon:

And that's why, like you just mentioned that resource in the department, it's so valuable to hop on there and have a look.

Siobhan:

On our web page, we do have 'Writing a great application' it's called, and what you're referring to there, it's called the merit selection procedure.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Siobhan:

Like font size, standard business margins, even the fact that the application has to be submitted as a PDF.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Siobhan:

I think that if people are equipped and have that knowledge and know at the very minimum that that's what's expected in the CV in terms of its structure, the content of the CV is a whole different story.

Sarah:

Exactly.

Shannon:

Especially when you are a beginning teacher, you know, there are some people who they're really, really keen on getting permanent, substantive, ongoing employment with the department.

Sarah:

Yeah.

Shannon:

And these are the sort of tips and tricks that are so valuable for them in their first couple of years, documenting what they've achieved and all those opportunities that they've taken and jumped in with, it's really important to reflect and note them down for your CV.

Sarah:

Yeah, absolutely. And another tip that I have is I remember, and you probably got them, people listening probably receive them, the emails from senior executives saying, 'Hey, there's a professional learning that's happening on Wednesday on the 14th of November', That's not a thing that's made up.

Shannon:

Sarah will be hosting one.

Sarah:

Come along, tea and coffee. No. And you know, 'It's an hour after school if you're free, you know, go for it'. And you kind of think, goodness, I am exhausted. I've got this happening. And, you know, there are boundaries that need to be put in place as teachers. I understand that. My however to that, is that I did go along to those Tim, who is still in the Department of Education, he has no idea but has helped me in terms of me sitting in interview and getting my job. One really specific example is he always said, 'Keep your hands inside the box'. And I sit in my interview.

Siobhan:

'What does that mean?'

Sarah:

And I take that with me. I keep my hands inside this little box in front of me because I don't want to keep my hands under the table and look nervous. I don't want to have my arms wide and, you know, overwhelming. But I want to be personable. I want to be relatable. And when I talk to people, I want them to feel comfortable. And if I keep my hands inside the box and I remember he presented that. And don't get me wrong, some people looked at each other like, what's he talking about? Yeah, but there were the people in the room like me who were like, 'Huh'. And I took that away with me.

Siobhan:

You know, I have a really, you've just ignited a core memory within me. My mum's a librarian, so, like, any thing that I want information on she would just give me a book. I'd be like 'Mum, I'm having this issue', and she's just like here's a book, read about it. Yeah, I'll give you my advice, but also like, here's the literature on it. But when she was applying for like a job interview is going through a new position. She read like every single 'how to nail the job interview' book that there is on the planet, and that was in there, keeping your hands up on the table inside the box.

Sarah:

There you go.

Siobhan:

And so I think that it's like a it's a simple strategy, but it is a really good way to show that you are approachable, friendly and comfortable, even if you might not feel comfortable. Fake it till you make it.

Sarah:

And also these like, you know, after-school sessions that went for an hour, you've got executives in the room, people who care, people who want you to get from A to B and people who've seen others do it, and they've clearly done it themselves. So there's merit in that and asking them questions and sitting with them. I received all sorts of different handouts of, you know, what you should have in a CV versus you shouldn't. So yeah, I think those opportunities, if and when you can, network, but also get out to those beginning teacher meetings, and ask those questions. Bask in the expertise.

Shannon:

Really valuable.

Siobhan:

Yeah.

Shannon:

Have you found yourself as, in your assistant principal role, have you had the opportunity to mentor beginning teachers?

Sarah:

Yeah, of course. Yeah. So I have beginning teachers come through, you know, various different teams that I have led and one of the best things is being a mentor. Because it's more just going back to basics and going, 'This is my bread and butter of teaching and this is what I need to prioritise. The rest can simply wait'. Because I think we get so absorbed in everything else, like you were saying, risk assessments and camps and organisation and all of that stuff. But it's the teaching that is our priority and moving student learning forward and looking after student wellbeing.

Siobhan:

Have you learnt from a mentor and then they pass that down to you and you've then passed that down and they'll pass up down.

Sarah:

Yeah, Yeah, we hope. We hope, yeah. In my the first school that I was at, I was told to find someone who is not an executive, who is not a leader because you need to have those vulnerable conversations. You need to have, you know, a close the door. This is what's going on. I really need your support. You need to be vulnerable. You need someone who's going to understand you. So I had an incredible mentor, Robin. She was so, so experienced in the classroom, and I knew that I could go to her about anything. And she had the answer to everything she really did. Sorry, I'm just thinking about her now. She was just such a beautiful. Yeah, such a beautiful woman. And she really helped me when things got too much and she even, you know, went into bat for me or went in and spoke to senior executive when things were too much at certain times.

Shannon:

Because as a beginning teacher that is quite daunting to speak to the executive and I think like it's all, you know, it's easily said for people who have a couple of years under their belt sometimes, not in every context, obviously, but you know, you have a bit more confidence. But as a beginning teacher, that's a big thing to go and talk to a deputy or to talk to a principal, no matter how supportive they are. I think it's just that sort of like, you almost put a barrier between yourself and execs sometimes when you're fresh.

Sarah:

You're spot on, because you want to be seen as capable and coping, when really you're just keeping your head above water.

Shannon:

Yeah, and you need help and that's okay.

Siobhan:

Yeah. And that's the power of a mentor, right? That's what Robin was to you. And I think that like, yeah, for me, my entire faculty in my first year, like, they all became my unofficial mentors.

Sarah:

That's beautiful.

Siobhan:

But I think it's really important to find your formal mentor and your informal mentors like you were saying.

Shannon:

My mentor was also called Robin, so something must be in the air. My very first mentor and she was, I was in awe of her when she would come into my classroom and do demonstration lessons, for example. I would just sit like a little sponge, like almost I wanted to cross my legs and sit like the students because I was just like 'Wow'.

Sarah:

'Can I ask questions?'

Shannon:

Yeah, and I honestly felt like she had all the answers.

Sarah:

You do feel like that, don't you?

Shannon:

Because I was so lucky to have someone in my corner that was mentoring me who was there supporting me with so much knowledge and experience.

Sarah:

Yeah, no, I feel that. I feel that immensely. And to see you talking about watching somebody else teach is so important in those first years, I was fortunate enough, it was interesting, halfway through the year we reached a certain amount of numbers in terms of students in the school, so we were then allowed to form another class. I think because it was halfway through the year, it was a really difficult decision splitting up the year six cohort because they had found their teacher. So they said, okay, instead of taking students out of classes and forming another class for Sarah to be the teacher, Sarah can team-teach across the year six classes, and that was the best. I got to see so many different, and team-teach with them as well.

Shannon:

What an opportunity.

Sarah:

It really was. And it was, you know, those times where I'm like, that is something I probably won't do in my career. And on the flipside, that is amazing. I would never have thought to have done it that way. And Robin was one of those teachers who yeah, really taught me so much about grouping kids, about sentence structure, all of those things I fall back on, even now.

Shannon and Siobhan:

Yeah.

Shannon:

You mentioned earlier that you're really passionate about literacy and numeracy. Is there a key learning area that you sort of like get really hyped to teach?

Sarah:

That is a great question. The, this isn't answering your question, but the first thing that comes to mind in terms of being really hyped to teach and really excited is your high-potential gifted kids in terms of there's so much research associated with how to teach those kids, how to honor their giftedness and when you do it correctly and in the right way and fall back on the research and bring it into the practical side of the classroom, it's amazing.

Shannon:

Yeah.

Sarah:

It is so incredible. So in terms of that realm, maths is probably my go to because I think sometimes when people think enrichment, they think up and on and then when they think about expansion of knowledge. But how, how do I do that? And when you do it and you do it well it's game changer. Yeah.

Shannon:

Yeah. And you see those students soar. So to dig a little bit deeper into that you have been on an opportunity class for a number of years. Yeah, I myself have taught an opportunity class and Siobhan here has taught at a selective high school. So we all have a real passion for…

Siobhan:

High-potential education.

Shannon:

Absolutely. And have lived and breathed with those students for many years. And that was definitely where I found my niche in my career, and it was where my heart was like, I thrived the most as a teacher because I just found such a passion for it. And those students, you're right, when they are taught,

in a way that, you know, makes sense to them and they understand that connection with the real world is so important, they absolutely just flourished and it's the most amazing thing to see them grow.

Sarah:

And credit to the kids as well, because in those contexts we really are the facilitator of the learning. So when they align with it and produce something incredible, it's like, 'This is all you'. And they're all like, 'No, but you're my, you're my great teacher, like you're the one who helped me get from A to B', and it's like 'No, no, that was all, this is you and you're incredible'. Yeah. And so, yeah, those moments really…

Siobhan:

Rewarding

Sarah:

Yes. Yeah, sure. I think we've lived the same life. Mentor Robin, OC.

Shannon:

Who are you really?

Sarah:

Yeah, what's going on?

Siobhan:

Are you her and she is you?

Shannon:

And we've got like Siobhan, Shannon, Sarah, the three S's here. There's something going on.

Sarah:

I love it.

Shannon:

I think we've touched on a lot of really good content today for those who are, I hope, wanting to step into the industry or the profession, I should say, of becoming a teacher. What would your piece of advice be for someone who's thinking about jumping in, maybe taking up teaching, going and studying at university?

Sarah:

My advice to someone who is thinking about teaching. It is the most rewarding, incredible job. Like there's nothing out there quite like it. The relationships that you make across the community, across a school with kids, is unmatched, and it is one of those professions that the more you give, the more is consumed. So it is about finding those boundaries, but you can do that, and that is possible. And when it's done, you're soaring, you're flying. And there's a reason that people are fueled by teaching. There's a reason that there are people whose lives are changed and find so much joy in waking up on a Monday, which is why Monday is my favorite and yeah, getting into the classroom and seeing those smiling faces back at you, ready to learn, you know, exactly where each of them are at in terms of their learning, in terms of their wellbeing.

Siobhan:

And where they are after school as well.

Sarah:

That's it.

Siobhan:

Bumping into them at the shops you're like 'Whoa, you're tall. And what are you doing now?'

Sarah:

It's a Saturday, yeah, exactly. Exactly. And you do you follow those journeys throughout and when when you're all in, it's a game changer. So yeah, it's an incredible profession.

Shannon:

We couldn't agree more.

Siobhan:

The snaps and claps and you said soaring flying. And I was like, 'There's not a story'.

Sarah:

There's a dance in that.

Shannon:

Troy Bolton. We're showing our age with High School Musical. You'll, you'll laugh at this. I put it on, on the bus on the way to stage three camp in Canberra.

Siobhan:

And did they all say, 'What is this?'

Shannon:

And the students turned to me and said 'What is this?' And myself and the other teacher at the time, Miss Morley, we were at the front of the bus and we asked.

Sarah:

Did you go 'It's a classic!'

Shannon:

We did. And we took the microphone, and we started singing along, made it absolute musical, right here on the bus.

Sarah:

I love it. Did you do the.

Shannon:

And what a joyous occasion it was all together. I mean, I say that the students probably felt otherwise. But no, thank you so much for joining us.

Sarah:

No, thank you for having me, it's been a pleasure.

Shannon:

On the the Teach NSW Podcast couch today. We really love chatting with you and

Sarah:

Thank you.

Shannon:

Hopefully everyone at home listening will get something from this episode that they can use and bring into to their classroom or use to help with their CV as well. So we really appreciate it.

Sarah:

Thank you both.

Siobhan:

We hope you enjoyed today's episode and we'll see you next time. Bye.

Shannon:

Thank you for tuning into the Teach NSW Podcast, where we explore the dynamic world of education. Don't forget to follow, like and subscribe to be notified when new episodes become available. You can find us on social media via our handle @teachNSW. Until next time, keep learning, keep teaching and keep making a difference the Teach NSW Podcast is a podcast by the Teach NSW team from the New South Wales Department of Education.